Some really bad pictutes being broadcast regarding the Catalonia voting...violence, agrression and rubber bullets being fired...the police are moving in to remove what is in there eyes unofficial ballot boxes.
This seems to be another situation of the world being upside down...people are not happy and want change wether it's Spain..USA...Germany or Brexit...people are not happy...the natives are restless and change is coming...people need to accept it and get used to it...

Hundreds of voters are injured in ugly clashes with riot police and Barcelona bans crowds from today's match amid safety fears as Catalonia's illegal independence referendum descends into violence

Officers were seen storming buildings across Catalonia to seize ballot boxes and prevent voting.

The Spanish government in Madrid has declared the vote illegal and ordered it be shut down.

Separatists pledged to hold the referendum anyway and called on 5.3million eligible citizens to vote.

Thousands of demonstrators have taken to the streets to protest against their votes being taken away.

Barcelona's mayor said that at least 460 people had been injured in the clashes across Catalonia.

FC Barcelona is playing its match against Las Palmas 'behind closed doors' at an empty Nou Camp.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4937860/Riot-police-clash-voters-Catalonia.html

The Natives are restless...

Absolutely unbelievable scenes but this is not some African or South American failed state this is Spain within the so called democratic EU. BBC News this day the sight of a 79 year old woman hit in the face with a baton and middle aged people beaten to a pulp for the crime of wanting democracy. This is just the beginning of the fall of the evil EU empire Italy Germany France Greece Holland Sweden Denmark all in the queue

I don't think this has anything to do with the EU, haven't heard the Catalans saying they want to leave the EU, have you?

Not directly no but not sure you know about Central Europe Vish but because of centuries of conflict (unlike Britain) the borders and factions are pretty fluid this is across much of Central Europe. Catalan is one but there are many others in Eastern Europe and Central Europe Holland Belgium Austria Germany and the ex soviet states. Overlay this with the general political unrest as you saw in elections in Germany France Holland where extreme politics gains power the EU is breaking apart this devolution with add to the mix. If Catalan seeks independence Which looks now likely they will be outside the EU as a new state they will have to reapply

"Unlike Britain"

Empire building tends to cause a lot of conflict. But let's pretend you didn't claim to own one quarter of the globe at one stage.

Probably Ireland the only exception and that was a one off event as far as I am aware the borders of Wales Scotland and England are fairly static and have been for many centuries if not thousands of years whereas in Europe they change in living memory. There is a bar on the border of I think Belgium and Holland and the border goes right through the bar and the bar has different licensing laws so you order a drink the barman says sorry last orders have gone but if you step a yard to the right I can serve you for another two hours because you are in a different country. This is because the border has been redrafted many times often within recent generations. If you remember just after the referendum result Scotland declared they wanted to seperate from Britain and join the EU the EU rejected this why ? Because they did not want to encourage break up in Europe which is a big danger for them

I think you will find that both Scotland and Wales have at various times in their history fought for their independence from England.

Britain has also faced armed resistance from countries striving to claim their independence throughout your history. Those countries include USA, South Africa and Ireland. Britain has caused plenty of conflict around the globe.

Scotland has always been independent from Britain it was a union not a takeover yes there were wars in the Middle Ages but the borders have remained static. As for britains involvement overseas that is irrelevant to the point being made and many of the European countries (like Spain for example) were doing the same thing however to repeat its completely irrelevant to the point only you could turn the Catalan dispute into brit bashing

It is far from irrelevant. You are trying to paint Britain as a trouble free paragon of virtue when it is far from it. The vast majority of Britain's conflicts have taken place in countries they had colonised.

Your current government is embroiled in a civil war and is led by a PM who wanted the UK to remain in the EU. She is now overseeing your exit strategy.

Thankfully you seem to have finally accepted that you will not be able to have your cake and eat it and grown up negotiations can now begin.

The pound has fallen and you have the weakest economy in Europe and Brexit has been delayed by at least another two years.

I think Britain has enough to be worrying about.

If the Catalans gain their independence it will not bring about the collapse of the EU. Sorry to disappoint you.

The majority of that post is an irrelevant rant against Britain what on earth has the Tory cabinet got to do with anything. No Catalan independence will not bring about the fall of the EU but it will be a big problem for them to add to all their growing political and financial troubles which there look to be no way out of. Unemployment is already very high in Spain Catalan is the biggest wealth generating area of Spain strip that out and you have the makings of another Greece on the EU,s hands. As I pointed out much of the EU is not stable there are many parts of Eastern Europe Germany and Holland and Belgium that have their own independence issues. Like the fall of the Roman Empire there is not one thing that will do for the EU but an aggregation of issues and they are piling up fast

the biggest problem is a civil war...wtf does madrid think it is doing, its not franco times anymore...assholes

Thankfully you don't get to decide what is and isn't relevant. Just because you don't like something doesn't make it irrelevant.

As I said Britain has enough of its own problems

yeah Stan the "evil" EU empire is actually a union not an empire..I know u hate all empires except for the british one but facts matter

A huge overreaction by the Spanish Government. A shameful day for Spain and democracy.

going there next week..not that side but still.. might get into full Orwell mode

We need to distinguish between the EEC and the EU i don't have a problem with the EEC and most countries voted for it including Britain. Then the EEC turned into the EU by political stealth by a few unelected commissioners. So who voted to be in the EU ? I don't recall a vote do you ?

yes we had loads of votes over the years

27 of the 28 countries seem happy enough with the arrangement.

I can't see any other country being in a huge rush to leave once the details of the Brexit Deal are announced.

I see your new trading partner Donald is doing his best to close Bombardier. That's going to be one interesting trade deal.

Meanwhile, Pep wades in.
Good on him, and I agree.

Disgusting and very sad scenes out there.

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/1...rendum-violence

27 of the 28 countries are happy with the arrangement ?

Except none of them have been asked

Only Britain so far given the choice

And look how well that is working out for you.

What do you expect from a right winger.

Most countries in the EU would swop with Britain in a moment the traffic between Britain and the EU is one way for people - to Britain. But as always you miss the point the rest of the EU has not been given the democratic option of expressing the view whether they want to be part of the EU or not nor do I think they will be given the chance the EU knows what the answer will be

Only a British party won an election after promising a referendum so don't talk nonsense and it's not the EU who dictates who should get a referendum or not

That's not strictly true the conservatives promised an election not because they wanted one but because they had no choice it was people power that got us a referendum and hopefully the same will happen for the people of Europe anti EU parties are already gaining in power just as they did in Britain in 2013 and 2014

What the hell are you talking about, so what is the SNP doing right now?

You can hope as much as you want but most Europeans are proud to be Europeans while a lot of British people are still dreaming of their empire

Most people in the EU think the UK is absolutely bonkers. Why in this modern age would a country want to become isolationist and protectionist.

One way traffic in your mind obviously doesn't include the 1.2 millions brits living in Europe.

Britain is not the land of milk and honey.

Only the British were stupid enough to,let the tail wag the dog.

Shaggy how do you know what most people in the EU think ? And not sure you have quite grasped democracy it's the people who have the final say not politicians people are the dog politicians the tail

I think being out of Europe will be a lot better in that we won't be having to bail out these third worldly type countries like Cyprus, Spain, Ireland, Portugal and Greece. Having to keep those type of countries that can't keep there own economic house in order is a terrible strain with stronger countries having to prop them up...glad to see the back of that...

Like the UK doesn't get what it wants from its presence there.

think some countries get and have got more out of Europe than us...

Not the UK,s opinion it voted to leave and along with Germany Britain is the only net contributor once we leave it will be left to Germany to finance the EU I am sure the Germans will be delighted

Can't wait for these lesser countries to go cap in hand to Germany again without us in the EU...can see Germany soon getting fed up with that arrangement in time especially since the dynamics of the country has changed so much with the influx of immigrants...

Evidence emerging of the Las Vegas mass killer surprise surprise it looks like he was mentally ill. There are plenty people mentally ill in Britain the difference is they can't go to a high street store and buy military grade assault rifles

"Most countries in the EU would swop with Britain".

How do you know what most countries in the EU think Stan?

No Stan it is you who doesn't understand politics. The referendum was only called because Cameron caved in to the demands of the Euro sceptics within the Tory party. He took what he thought was a calculated risk and it backfired spectacularly, hence his resignation. The only reason there was a referendum in the first place was to stop the in-fighting in the Tory party over Europe once and for all. The will of the people had precious little to do with it.

The Tory euro sceptics were the tail that wagged the government dog. The upshot of all this is that the Tory party is now more divided than ever with a dead duck PM at the helm and no feasible Brexit strategy in place.

[quote=giorgiomoroder]I think being out of Europe will be a lot better in that we won't be having to bail out these third worldly type countries like Cyprus, Spain, Ireland, Portugal and Greece. Having to keep those type of countries that can't keep there own economic house in order is a terrible strain with stronger countries having to prop them up...glad to see the back of that... [/quote

Don't agree]

Yawn

When did you last go to Germany to get a grip on how the dynamic has changed?

why would I need to go to Germany to know they haven't...I have talked to Germans so they would know and besides if I know there's a big hole in the side of a rowing boat with more water coming in than going out I don't need to be in that boat to know it's sinking now do I...no problem if your gonna reply to my posts my mate but try to keep it sensible if you can...thanks pal...

So you know the dynamics of a country is changing without ever visiting the place? Nice one.

How were these German's English by the way? Are you sure you understood them properly?

HA HA HA!
Nice one.....PAL

britain won't be the last to leave the ailing EU you can be sure of that nothing wrong with a common market that was a decent idea but no country voted for political union only the politicians they are completely at odds with the population particularly in Europe which is moving back to national identity Catalan being just one example

The ailing EU! Britain's economy isn't exactly flourishing. Also your trade deal with the USA isn't looking great given your current difficulties with Donald.

bit like you talking on a Liverpool Forum when haven't been to Anfield...you see I can use the same logic for you my friend...

Tick tick tick.......................

Question why has the EU not been critical of the violence by the Spanish state ? The silence is deafening the reason is they are terrified of more devolution in what is a fragile situation France Belgium Germany Poland Italy have breakaway issues on long standing disputes

http://www.thenational.scot/news/1556934...se_ally__Spain/

France? What the hell are you talking about, the country having the biggest breakaway issue in Europe is UK regarding Scotland. You should be ashamed looking stupid.

Before spouting off do some research there are many countries in Europe with breakaway factions this is clearly a subject you know nothing about France has a breakaway issue in Corsica but there are at least half a dozen places and Catalan looks a lost cause now relations were already bad. As for Scotland we don't hear much about that after the last election it's dead in the water

Not really. I'm not claiming to know the mood of a place I've never been to (have I or haven't I?). I have spoken to some Liverpudlians, who I understand perfectly by the way, so does that count?

It's coming

Lets ignore the problems in Scotland and N. Ireland.

Lets ignore that fact that the Government doesn't actually have a Brexit strategy.

Lets ignore the fact that there is an ongoing civil war within the cabinet.

Lets ignore the fact that Britain has already agreed to delay Brexit by two years.

Lets ignore the fact that Britain is the poorest performing economy in Europe.

Lets ignore the collapse of sterling.

Instead lets try and convince anyone who cares to listen that the rest of Europe is about to fall apart.

Still looking forward to that trade deal with Donald Stan.

Corsica? Now? Common, you don't know much about France, in fact, you don't look to know much about a lot of things as most far right supporters.

mange tout Vish, mange tout.

us winning the League...yes I know...Klopp has us on the right track...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCYL4IphU_A

Que veux tu que que je mange?

Sorry Vish but i don't speak German.

Is that really the best you can do ?

Well you couldn't have got that from him as you wouldn't have understood him.

yes the Watford blueprint is the way to go...if a manager still can't speak the country he is managing in's language after a set time then show him the door...Look at them now because of it...obviously worked...

Where can we send you then due to your lack of grasping the English language?

https://youtu.be/VAVAyvPsZ4g

Haha! Don't think I ever saw that.

Koptalk maybe...oh wait am already here haha...quite happy are you my friend...

Makes no odds to me where you are. I do struggle to read your posts mind. I suppose your written English is as bad as Klopps spoken. Maybe we should apply the Watford thinking to that kind of thing on the forum?

why not...you can always give it a go mate...

Give what a go? Using proper English? Already there my mate.

What else do you want me to say to a British supremacist saying that 1 British soldier is worth more than 50 Irish. We all know your views now and they are shameful. It's people like you and Farage who are going to bring your country down

They are worth 50 of the terrorist scum that were fighting one another for 30 years and then stopped what was achieved by the killings ? NOTHING WHATSOEVER . The British troops were not invaders they gave their lives to save lives IRISH CIVILIAN LIVES. Yet it would be asking too much to show gratitude if you think putting the troops in, in the 1960's was a mistake then you must believe the better solution would have been for the British troops to stay out. In which case you must believe it would have been better for Mother Nature to take her course and let natural selection Deliver a solution. That's not my belief and when people slag off my country and our brave armed forces don't be surprised if people take offence.

Back to Catalan it very much looks like they are going for independence and soon. This is going to be interesting

Britain created N. Ireland and it remains a British problem.

The biggest terrorists in N. Ireland wore British Army uniforms.

Also how exactly did Britain acquire N. Ireland if they hadn't invaded it previously.

Why would Irish people show gratitude to the British Army, have you completely lost your mind.

We now know that you hate the Irish, Muslims and Europeans.

Yeah very interesting to see a possible civil war start.

Seems to me that both sides are in the wrong here with the Catalans going off and doing what they fancy and the Spanish government not listening to them.

Still, at least if they break away Barca can look to dominate a newly formed Catalan Super League.

A bit like Scotland

A bit like Scotland [/quote

In what way is Catalan like Scotland ?

Both seeking their independence.

Is Scotland seeking independence ? Not as far as I am aware nothing about it on the news the last election showed clearly the majority are not in favour of another referendum for the foreseeable future, possibly for generations. Catalan on the other hand could declare independence within days

The biggest party in Scotland after the last election in 2017 was the SNP. The party that wants another referendum. That would show that the majority support a party that wants independence. The SNP have 35 seats that is 11 more than the tories, labour and liberals combined. Now I know you have a strange view of the world but for the rest of us that would show that the majority of Scottish voters now want independence.

Catalan can declare independence whenever they like. Being internationally recognised as an independent state is another matter entirely.

So why has she knocked another vote on independence on the head? Just because they're the biggest party and Jimmy Crankie wants the vote that their voters all do.

I don't think the SNP do want another referendum at the moment last time I read it was put on the back burner yes they want independence but the time is not right politically now incidently the SNP are a governing party people vote for them for reasons other than independence. Also just for information at the 2014 referendum personally I was disappointed Scotland voted to remain and I find it odd the only people who don't get their own devolved government are the English

NO terrorist, no matter what nationality or colour he of she or it is, a vile disgusting moronic piece of worthless sh1t that doesn't deserve to breathe even, and is not worth ANYTHING at all, never mind the lives of 50 Army lads.
A bass turd that recklessly and thoughtless kills and maims innocent people, just to get their illusionary beliefs over.

MANY many decent clean living Irish suffered and were killed too, and let's not forget that please, so let's not slag off their country either thank you.

Terrorists come in all shapes and sizes, including military uniforms.

She hasn't she has put it on the back burner. Those who vote for the SNP Scottish National Party know fine well what that party is all about.

I prefer to put my faith in the British army and democracy rather than the INLA or IRA if it's all the same with you but each to their own

And as for Scottish independance good luck to them I say if that's what the majority of Scots want then I am with them all the way but there is no sign of it on the immediate horizon not the case in Spain though

Murder is murder whoever is responsible.

Trying to defend it is reprehensible, but hardly surprising coming from you.

The INLA and IRA deliberably set out to kill civilians as did the UVF they are nothing more than thugs and gangsters and also massive cowards planting bombs then hiding away executing or maiming defenceless people. Only a sympathiser of one of these groups would equalise them with a professional army from a democracy like Britain. What would these people substitute it with ? It does not bear thinking of !

Shooting unarmed innocent civilians is not the actions of a professional army. Many of the murderers in Northern Ireland wore British Army uniforms. Also the British version of democracy in N. Ireland is nothing short of comical.

So i assume you would prefer the British army had stayed at home leaving the republicans and unionists to let natural selection take its course ? There are many in England who would agree with you and I know a few guys who served in NI I can assure you not one of them wanted to be there it was the posting they dreaded. But they were brave men who did their duty and saved Northern Ireland from a bloodbath you might not appreciate that but most people do.

For the umpteenth time, it was Britain that created N. Ireland and it remains a British problem. Your attempts at trying to pretend it is a wholly Irish problem does not change that fact.

Also, I think you will find that the vast majority of nationalist and republican people in N. Ireland have neither respect nor fond memories of the British Army.

I am sure the majority of people in Northern Ireland don't have fond memories of the IRA and INLA either particularly the relatives of those murdered. As I say presumably you would have preferred the British army had stayed at home many English would agree with you. I remember clearly the mood in England at the height of the troubles no one wanted our troops to be there and saying we should leave them to it was a common saying. However such a situation would have resulted in complete civil war and a bloodbath only extremists wanted that.

Would you mind explaining why part of Ireland is not in the republic of Ireland but in UK? Why is that?

I'd rather not know tbh Vish.

Britain claims ownership of 6 of the 32 counties of Ireland. They originally claimed ownership of all 32 counties but 26 counties gained their independence after the War of Independence in the 1920's.

In a word vish: Colonialism :

Shaggy could you explain the context and history of the Ulster volunteers ? What did they stand for and who sent a navy to oppose them before World War One ? In addition to the army ? And what event stopped it ?

Think half the problem with Northern Ireland is they hide behind the religious excuse when really they are just bitter people looking for any old excuse to hurt one another....even since the good Friday agreement when it's all supposed to of stopped it's still carrying on just not being publicised...we should of just let them get on with it as there not worth it...

Vish has asked why is Ulster not part of Ireland ? Simple Vish the majority of the population see themselves as British and want to remain British even to this day the minority community (of which shaggy is part of that community) oppose this and in the past (and to an extent) the present some within the republican community oppose that democratic will by violence and murder

The UVF was an illegal loyalist organisation that murdered numerous innocent nationalists during the troubles. Google the shankhill butchers to learn of their heroic actions to save Ulster. Warning, very graphic content.

Stan forgot to mention how there is a small group of people on the island of Ireland who think they are British.

They were literally planted here by the English, being promised large areas of land in N. Ireland in particular in return for their allegiance to the English crown. Stan also declined to mention that the Irish people who owned that land were driven off it by heroic English soldiers.

The 6 counties was then created by Britain in the 1920's after loyalists threatened war if Home Rule for the entire island of Ireland, which had been passed by the British Parliament was introduced. Stan also calls this democracy. There are 9 counties in Ulster but the loyalists took only six to ensure that they would always have an electoral majority. Stan again calls this democracy.

In Co. Derry (one of the six counties) where there has always been a nationalist majority unionist politicians still controlled the council through a system of gerrymandering. This denied most Catholics the right to vote and gave many loyalists multiple votes. Stan yet again calls this democracy.

This 6 county state that Stan holds in such high esteem was described by its first PM as a Protestant state for a Protestant people. Not much inclusivity there.

Im sorry, that made no sense. Your English isn't great.

sorry don't agree with this point...

Que?

How come a majority in a county (geographically) wants to form part of another country, looks weird, don't you think so? I don't know the history but how is it that there are more protestants there than Catholics, because I feel this is the difference compared to the rest of the island.

This is what I thought because it looked weird that one region of an island thought differently to the rest. The British have done that at a number of places like Gibraltar and the Falklands in their empire days which some think will come back soon as they move out of the EU. Hopefully for the UK the younger population will have a different view.

I rather think his view is very simplistic to make any sense, nothing new should we say.

Stan has yet again shown his true ignorant nationalist colours..usual from him -hasn't a clue about the history or details of any topic but has a strong pro british nationalist opinion on it , an opinion fed to him by the daily mail. In past N.Ireland debates he has stated the troubles started cause Catholics wanted a united ireland - I mean wtf- never picked up a book in his life I'd say.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D28NRcdsVR0

There was migration into Ireland 300 to 400 years ago mainly from Scotland. This was contravershal and like many things that happened centuries ago not of the standards of today. Incidently the same number of Irish migrated to England in the industrial revolution no one in England wants to send them home because we are sensible and civilised people. The fact is almost everywhere in the world had similar situations to this look at America. No one other than a fanatic wants to force them from their homes because something their distant ancestors did. Yet many in the republican movement in Ireland want to do just that you can see in the langauage shaggy used above posts he simply does not recognise their right to be there. However the unionists are the majority they want to be British Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom and as long as the people from that province want to be part of the UK thats the way it's going to continue whether the bully boys like it or not. Incidently shaggy you don't know your own history the Ulster volunteers fought the British government before the First World War the British government wanted to do exactly as you wished to give home rule. The Ulster volunteers wanted to stop this and the British were gearing up to send the army in and put the Royal Navy off the Irish coast. To basically give the Irish republicans what they wanted so much for the evil invading British. However this never happened because World War One broke out and thousands of the Ulster volunteers joined the British army and died and fought bravely in France. After that the British government backed down. The only reason Northern Ireland is part of Britain is because that's what the majority want shaggy might live in Ulster but he speaks for the minority republican side. As I keep saying to him why they can't just live together and forget what went on hundreds of years ago is something I cannot or ever will understand

Another wholly inaccurate account of the events in Ireland from a man who thinks that one british life is worth 50 Irish lives. The same man who gave the response "So What" when questioned on the invasion of Ireland by Britain.

As others have asked I don't know what is worse, your ignorance or your arrogance.

The only person talking about forcing anyone from their homes is you. But then being a brexiteer, driving people from their homes probably appeals to you.

Such is your knowledge of Ireland that you feel that you are qualified to tell us what everyone in Ireland is thinking. Nationalist, Unionist, Loyalist and Republican. You conveniently forget to mention that tens of thousands of Nationalist Irish Volunteers also fought for the British Army in WW1.


Those Irish that emigrated to England didn't drive the people of Yorkshire from their land, declare it part of Ireland, rig elections and hail it as a victory for democracy. The subtle difference will probably be lost on you.

You don't know what you are talking about and you argument is driven by hatred, ignorance and arrogance. You are really starting to embarrass yourself.

Wouldn't let him get to you shag, everyone on here knows what he is like and is suitably embarrassed for him.

Just don't see why he should be allowed to post his bile unchecked emp.

oh by all means expose his ignorance but I wouldn't worry that people actually take him seriously.

well I admire his patriotic side and also sticks to his beliefs against an overwhelming difference of opinion on here...I can relate to that...I just don't understand why people can't accept that people have a difference of opinion...nothing wrong with that...

My opinion is I think there's is something totally missing upstairs with the Irish People who want to continue fighting and squabling over something that happend hundeteds of years ago...we had the same thing here in Liverpool up until the late 60s early 70s with religion but luckily enough we saw sense and moved on... just for the record Everton were the Catholic Club and Liverpool the Protestant Club for those who didn't know..

I put forward an entirely accurate account of the Ulster volunteers one not well know the response being to attack me personally and throwing brexit into the mix. This deflection means it cannot be answered simply because it's true. Forced migration into Ireland several centuries ago forcing families from their homes was of course wrong by present day standards. It's also worth mentioning plenty Protestant families were also burnt out if their homes and murdered in uprisings. But to put in context some of this happened in cromwellian times at that period the people ruling America were native Indians. No sane person suggests the American people (who also forced migrated) should vacate their homes in 2017 and go back to Europe. Same in Australia same across most of the world. Where I live at that time there were bloody conflicts Lancashire and Yorkshire had the war of the roses with bloodshed every bit as vicious as Ireland yet today light hearted banter about cricket results is as far as it gets.

Entirely inaccurate account you stated the following:

the Ulster volunteers fought the British government before the First World War Thew UVF never fired a shot against the British throughout the Home Rule period.

the British were gearing up to send the army in and put the Royal Navy off the Irish coast. The British army was already based in Ireland. British Army officers based at the Curragh threatened to Mutiny if the were sent to suppress the UVF. So basically the British army in Ireland refused to carry out orders from the British parliament in relation to suppressing the UVF.

Once again the only person talking about people vacating their homes is you.


Your basic argument seems to be because these things happened a long time ago they don't matter. Unfortunately they do in N. Ireland because their impact still affects the island of Ireland today.

As always, when you talk about N. Ireland the only things consistent about your argument is your lack of knowledge, ignorance and arrogance.

Yes the Ulster volunteers never fired a shot against the British army but had it not been for the First World War that would have been unlikely to have remained the case. Yes it's true in the Dublin barracks they were on the verge of mutiny but they would have been replaced very quickly by troops from other parts of the UK and the navy was preparing to set sail. As for your refusance to accept ancient history the parallel to your logic would be to refuse to allow anyone to vote in USA elections other than true native Americans. In the present day that is clearly absurd but such is Northern Ireland sectarianism of which seems ingrained as you demonstrate

Be interesting to know what sort of things which happend hundreds of years ago are relevant today to the point people are still hurt of killed...to me the people of Ireland must be happy with the way things are or they would so something about it and change.....I know am on the outside looking in and can only give a view how childish and immature it looks from afar....can somebody also tell me why people still march about something which happend a couple of hundred years ago, knowing full well it causes trouble, surely you can see how this looks to the outside world...

People from Ulster are decent people in fact I was out with one earlier this week they are no different from anywhere else thankfully there is a peace of sorts and long may it hold Unfortunetly in the shadows are the fanatics

they march and sing songs to rub the catholics nose in it , luckily there has been change but it had more to do with economy and the british image in the world than it had to do with unionists and catholics coming together. As the world knows the troubles started out as a civil rights movement, catholics were discriminated and when they marched about it they were shot and burnt out of their homes, the army came to quash unionist violence but sadly joined them in it. The liberation of south africa and videos of unionist "adults" trying to stop catholic kids from going to school kinda forced the uk to put pressure on .

It's true the Catholics suffered discrimination but it wasn't a one way street both sides have and still do commit violence and discrimination. Common sense is starting to prevail but there are always those who want the troubles to continue and who profit from the violence

it was a one way street actually

So they're decent people now are they? That's very nice of you to say, I'm sure they'll be relieved.
How about the 28 unarmed peaceful civil rights demonstrators that were shot by British Army paratroopers in 1972 (14 of which died), were they decent people too? Were the British paratroopers that shot them decent people?
Keep your head buried in the sand, I don't think you'll like the truth.

Neither will you the truth is never one sided. Yes the British paratroopers lost control they were battle trained troops in a civilian situation it was early in the conflict and lessons were learned today the British army is probably the most proficient in the world at these situations. What you don't mention is the IRA were there and they were armed and shots were fired. Yes the British army lost control in that incident but they certaintly did not randomly kill civilians it was a highly charged situation. I would also point out those solidiers are now in their 70,s and are being hounded through the courts prosecutions paid for by the British taxpayer whereas the IRA murderers including the Warrington bomber free as birds and immune from prosecution. Yes there are decent people in Ireland but i am not seeing many on here just republican fanatics who don't represent anyone but their small circle.

In your mind I am sure it was

So anyone who disagrees with you on Northern Ireland is a republican fanatic eh? Just 7 years ago the Saville Report concluded that ''none of the victims had posed any threat to the soldiers and that their shooting was without justification'' it also found that '' the first shot in the vicinity of the march had been fired by the British army and that, though there was some firing by republican paramilitaries, it did not provide any justification for the shooting of the civilian casualties''. But keep trying to excuse it, they were just following orders right?

As I said if you bothered to read the paras lost control however the IRA were there and I find it hard to believe they were not involved in some facilitation Bloody Sunday was a gift to the republicans and the IRA. But you have to ask why the troops were there it was certainly not out of choice they were there to stop the two sides killing one another are the cowardly terrorists and their cowardly sympathisers absolved from blame and responsibility ?

So have just admitted that the two points you stated as historical facts in relation to the UVF were in fact wrong.

Thank you for clearing that up.

So you are now an apologist for murdering paratroopers who were condemned by their own PM.

Bloody Sunday was a gift, could you be any more disgusting?

Those paratroopers who injured and murdered innocent civilians on Bloody Sunday should and will be prosecuted and jailed. That is how a civilised society functions.

No not in my mind, in the detailed report your own british govt did on the matter...the details can be found here http://alphahistory.com/northernireland/cameron-report-unrest-northern-ireland-1969/ ..

no mention of Protesant discrimination at all. You are an ignorant nationalist troll

So can anybody educate me on the marching season in Ireland and why it's still allowed if it causes so much civil unrest on both sides, I know one side says it's there right to march and the other side say it's just to antagonise and rub there noses in it, if something like that caused so much trouble in this country it would be stopped immediately and a law to keep the peace brought out in parliament...

The EDL still march over here .

Yes but they are closely monitored and the trouble which follows them is isolated and nowhere near on the same scale as N.I.

If they were proven to break the law yes but it's not a crime to serve your country in conflict and I am proud of our brave armed forces. Bloody Sunday was a gift to the terrorists it's the first thing that's brought up by sympathisers of the IRA and the republican movement. Thankfully you don't speak for the majority of people in Northern Ireland who have common sense clearly the last election in June was a vote that got nowhere near the division you are pushing for it seems. Rather than concentrate on British troops from decades ago doing their jobs and duty it might serve you better to focus on the mass civilian murderers in the IRA INLA UVF who even today carry out punishments and murders including kneecapping young men often shooting through both ankles crippling them for life often for petty misdemeanours or settling scores. You need to move on from the fact that people settled in your community 400 years ago I also find it ironic you and others play the racisim card whenever it suits but what could be more racist than refusing to acknowledge the existence or rights of people simply because they are not descended from the right Celtic bloodline. It's crazy shaggy I just don't get it and whatever you post I never will it is just utter madness

Back to the subject matter one the thread. Just reading up on it, potentially this could bring down the EU even before brexit has incepted. As I write two commandeered cruise liners are parked off the coast of Barcelona filled with armed troops. The Spanish government early next week is planning by force to stop the Catalan government from sitting. If Catalan gets independence (which now politically (if not legally) seems inevitable) then we could see the need for a bail out to Spain which would fiscally be impossible (Spain too big to bail out) this will bring about the fall of the euro and with it the EU if it has not common currency political union is impossible. As if this were not bad enough Corsica Flanders and other parts of the EU are at threat of similar situations imminently.

A gift lol,we're the country that can't stop giving ,happens time and time again when people can't accept our presents.

A gift to the terrorists

Again with the bullcrap Protesant rights thing..no such issue..the issue in fact was civil right of catholics and the attack on them(by protesants) for asking for such rights.all reports and academic studies conclude that that was the issue ..so not protesant rights at all or demands for a united ireland..you are just talking straight out of ur arse as usual.

So what should we do emp send the proddies home ?

think you will find that has never been a demand..that just in your head. There is a peace process due to your Govt finally accepting the mistreatment of the catholic community..the "proddies"trying to stop catholic kids going to school sealed the deal in the world eyes.. so yes thats it , hopefully power sharing will be restored and then eventually the catholic community will out vote the protesant one and a united ireland will happen. Thats it, no need for trolling people at all about it.

If the majority of people in Ulster want to be part of a United ireland no one would be more pleased than me but they never have to date and as long as they want to be British, British they will stay and there is nothing the republican bully boys can do about it. They tried the gun and murder they lost and they will lose again if they try that nonsense again.

They are guilty alright Stan, that has been confirmed by no less a man than your then PM.

I am not a member of or supporter of the IRA so trying to tar me with that brush isn't going to work. I condemn the loss of any human lives through violence.

I have never said that Protestant people should go back to where they came from, that's insane. N. Ireland is not the Wild West and the majority of the population are decent, ordinary people who get on with their lives. We are making progress but it will be along road. However the violence has ended and will never return.

But Bloody Sunday remains an open wound that will never heal until those who murdererd innocent civilians are prosecuted and jailed.

Your remarks about the value of an Irish life in comparison to an British life were shocking as where your remarks about Bloody Sunday being a gift.

No one gained anything from Bloody Sunday Stan, no one.

oh so you want to continue with the trolling.. you sound like a 12yr old , pathetic.

Stan is a joke of a person shaggy..trolling away with nothing nice to say

I don't remember anyone surrendering, that was what brought about the success of the Good Friday Agreement. No one won anything out of the troubles in N. Ireland.

Shaggy you said our PM said they were guilty which PM ? And how can this PM (whoever it is) say they are guilty when it's never been in court ? And you are backtracking now you clearly have said it's a British problem caused by the forced migration hundreds of years ago clearly implying those people have less of a democratic right than you purely because of bloodline and religion. However if you are now recanting that's progress. At the end of the day democracy is the only solution if the majority of the people in Northern Ireland want to be part of Southern Ireland then they can go with our best wishes but until that time the bigortry and division serves no one. And agreed no one surrendered at the good Friday agreement (I don't recall saying they did) but clearly the gun and murder achieved nothing in the 30 years

Stan I'm becoming more and more convinced that your mind is starting to go.

Read former PM David Cameron's statement on the day the Saville Enquiry findings were published. It finishes with an apology, he disputed none of it's findings. This includes the following facts. None of those murdered were armed, that one victim was shot crawling away, another was finished off as he lay wounded and another victim was shot when he had his hands in the air. The Bloody Sunday families are pushing for prosecutions and that is a lot nearer than you are going to like. Oh and there is a huge push going on presently for another inquiry into the Ballymurphy Massacre in 1971. That took place in Belfast when 11 nationalists were murdered by those brave heroes of the parachute regiment again over a 3 day period. Victims there included a mother who had gone to help another victim and a catholic priest who was shot dead whilst administering the last rites.

Britain created N.Ireland and it is a British problem. 29 of the 32 counties of Ireland have an Irish nationalist majority, the other 3 have a unionist majority. How do you think that happened Stan? I have no idea how you have managed to come to the conclusion that I am backtracking but you post a lot of things that I don't understand.

Again you make another totally incorrecy statement where you tell me what I am implying, you are completely wrong yet again. But you have a habit of trying to demonise others by passing your views off as theirs.

Democracy in N. Ireland from the outset was tainted and it remains that way. It is the same democracy that Britain talks of so proudly in relation to the Falkland Islands and Gibraltar.

The simple fact of the matter is that nationalists will shortly outnumber unionists and their veto will then be gone.

Seems like a lot of prosecutions looking forward to the prosecutions of the IRA murderers which funny enough shaggy you never mention. Are you now suggesting the Falklands and Gibraltar are forcibly evacuated ? Yes the unionists are strong in certain counties so what ? They have as much right to live there and vote as you do and the fact they think different to you is something you are going to have to deal with. Whether Britain caused this 400 years ago I could not care less nor can anyone with an ounce of sanity what next evacuate Canada America New Zealand austrialia etc ?

I'm not a member of the IRA so why should I have to explain their actions. Also there were numerous murders carried out by the UVF with security force collusion but I never mentioned them either. Learn a little humility and accept the fact that Britain has nothing to be proud of in Ireland. The behaviour of the British army in nationalist areas of N. Ireland was nothing short of appalling.

Your continued support of the murderers of innocent civilians says a lot about you. Sure it was only Irish people they murdered.

Yet again the only person speaking of forcible evacuations is you, but then the British do have previous in that department so it's understandable.

I think you had to give those other countries back.

Shaggy you don't know as much about your history as you think. I mentioned the Ulster volunteers and you banged on about the bad things they did clearly missing the point. Only after prompting did you get the message and clearly you had googled it. I only knew having watched recently the history of Britain by Andrew marr. That showed that had the First World War not started when it did there would be a United ireland by now and the British government would have created it by military force. The only reason the counties were set up as they were was because of the unionist population which after the First World War and the unionist sacrifices for Britain the British government was shamed into protecting them had the war not occurred the UK would most likely have abandoned them because the region was more trouble that it was worth with the fighting. The unionist population having migrated there since the 1600,s. So it's not a British created problem it's an Irish created problem because of your religious bigotry and racisim. Bigotry that continues to this day you yourself clearly don't accept their right to be there even though they outnumber you and have lived there for hundreds of years even before the USA was created. That is bonkers it's clear shaggy from your responses the hatred and division is engrained you seem to see the world in terms of defeating the unionists yet they are your fellow citizens neighbours and friends. You guys over the Irish Sea are crazy I will never understand you

You will understand if I don't take an Irish history lesson from you given your previous efforts. If I was marking your homework you would now be on detention. You don't know what you are talking about.

You are a man who equates one British life to 50 Irish lives whilst trying to lecture someone else on bigotry.

A man who defends British troops who murdered 14 innocent civilians and who knows better than those who oversaw the Saville Enquiry and the then British PM.

A man who thinks the people of N. Ireland own the British army a debt of gratitude.

A man who described Bloody Sunday as a gift.

A man who described the Northern Irish as idiots, childish and clowns.

You have a lot there to be proud of Stan

I don't think one British soldiers life equates to 50 IRA terrorists I apologise for that remark it was totally wrong. One British soldiers life is worth more than 50 million IRA terroists and I am underestimating even then. They are cilivlian child killing scum and many of their victims are nothing even to do with terrorism punishment attacks in the province. If you want me to have a love in with the IRA shaggy you have a job on your hands. I have noticed where Muslim attacks on Britain are concerned you are sympathetic to the attackers for example the last attack at Parsons Green in London you said "its cause and effect" basically saying it's the wests doing intervening in Syria (presumably halting Islamic state is a bad thing) and therefore the attacker could not help himself but to attack inncocent civilians in the country that housed him and gave him asylum. There is an old saying I think it's Russian "my enemies enemy is my friend" all the Islamic attacks on Britain are some would view an attack on the British state. Being an expert on Irish history (except for the Ulster volunteers) you would know the IRA collaborated with the Nazis in World War Two providing intelligence. Had operation sea lion been a success then the Irish would have been put to forced labour along with the British and certain categories sent to the death camps. However the republican cause exceeds all right ? However I would be very careful with Islamic it may be there is a short term common goal but Christian catholisim and hard core Islamic teachings don't have a secure future and there will be only one winner and I know where my money would be. There is a view as long as a reason can be provided any action is justifiable I don't agree with that from Irish terror to Islamic terror there can be no justification and those that follow that path should
Bear the responsibility. So yes by the standards of today the forced migration in Ireland in the 1600/70,s was wrong but that's what happened then plenty Irish came to England America Canada etc were nations formed on forced migration we have to deal with what exists today. The British had no choice but to partition in the 20,s if they were to avoid civil war. And it did work and would have worked were it not for the terrorists the good Friday agreement could have been done decades earlier. So unlike you people who perform evil acts I believe should take responsibility and the consequences

Yet another mindless rant from an anti Irish bigot.

he is a horrible buffoon

he is the definition of a hypocrite..whilst u and I and other irish people can deplore the violence of the IRA he can't accept responsibility for anything he associates with . And if you hit him with true facts, like the troubles were started by Protesant discrimination and violence toward the catholic community , he throws a wobbly. A horrible little man

none of you can answer my points directly throw as many personal insults as you like it just makes you look stupid. The violence was small minded division and bigotry on both sides whereas it's true in the 60,s Catholics suffered discrimination nothing justified the bloodshed and gratuitous torture and violence which actually made the situation worse the violence put a political solution back decades and when peace finally came it was effectively just going back to the original start point, the thousands of deaths were for no outcome. It's quite clear from comments on here from what I believe to be republican sympathisers that the sectarian bigatory is still festering under the surface

wrong as usual.. govt power sharing, anti discrimination laws and a new police force, dual citizenship, open borders - so not back to the starting point at all.

There isn't one post on here attempting to justify violence by any side in N. Ireland. That's apart from your pathetic attempts to justify the murderers who carried out Bloody Sunday.

Anyone who disagrees with you is either republican or a sectarian bigot. Your language in relation to Irish people is quite simply racist and as always your arrogance is only overshadowed by your ignorance. You don't know what you are talking about.

He never does.

You are justifying voilence not directly but simply retreating into your republican silo that all blame lies with the unionists and all British soldiers are psychopaths is disturbing shaggy and if you are an example of a moderate then god help Ulster. Your position whilst not directly advocating voilence is justying it by asserting its self defence etc and thus in effect facilitating it. If this is the attitude of many in Ulster then the troubles are just under the surface which is worrying my hope is shaggy you don't represent popular opinion in Ulster and from the people I know from that part of the world you are not representative. Most want to get on with their lives and move forward from my limited connections

More nonsense, only one man on here has tried to justify violence in N.Ireland and that is you. Again you spout your bile and pass it off as someone else's opinion because they don't agree with you.

You obviously have limited connections because you have no idea what went on here yet continue to tell those of us who live here how terrible we all are.

Still waiting for the post that someone else posted that justified any violence in N. Ireland

You should be ashamed of yourself for nonsense that you post. You've been repeatedly told by posters here that we do not support the IRA or violence of any kind but as with other subjects discussed on here your fallback position is to label anyone who doesn't agree with your antique view of the world as terrorist sympathizers, simply because you don't know what else to say.
Complain about name calling and insults then proceed to call people names and insult them and their country.

dont know why you have directed this reply towards me I have not posted anything on the current discussion...please get your facts and replies straight...

Its not always about you G no.

I don't respond to you directly at all...ever, in fact I skip over your posts. But just this once I'll explain something to you. If you are the one that starts a thread all replies will appear as a reply to you, but if you actually read my reply you'll see that I wasn't replying to you. But, if you see yourself in there then well and good.

"Look this was not the best part of our history neither side was blameless but we are at peace and we need to work together as a collective community for the long term future of Northern Ireland"

To me that is typically what a reasonable person would say in these circumstances but I am not hearing this, simply retreating into the us and them silos with attitudes that would be perfectly at home in 1972. I really really hope the posters on here do not represent the ordinary views of people in Ulster.

Take the time to read what you have posted about the Irish on this thread and then tell me whether you consider those posts reasonable or not. I sincerely hope these are not the views of ordinary British people.

Terrorist and terrorist sympathisers are where I have the problem and I am sure most Irish would agree with me

Bit late to start backtracking now.

I have a problem with apologists for murderers.

Sure he is the biggest supporter of terrorism there is, he supports nearly every war the uk or us starts...this fella argued the virtues of the vietnam war with me ..yeah millions of women and kids murdered by state terrorism and this [oops] supports it..he is moron a hypocrite and a troll...british empire good all other empires bad.

If you pair are representative of the views in Ireland it's troubling I am not hearing any voices of reconciliation at all and calling the British murderers is a bit rich from Irish republicans. I am fairly confident you are not representative I certaintly hope so for the sake of everyone Britain and Ireland

I think they want the whole of Ireland to vote in which country they want to be instead of a small part where the English sent their own people. In fact things are ok now as both countries are part the EU, but things might get bad very soon.

Those brave British paratroopers who committed murder on Bloody Sunday are murderers and you can bleat all you want but that fact will never change. Once again you resort to calling anyone who doesn't agree with your bigoted viewpoint either a republican or a terrorist.

Comical to hear you talking about reconciliation. Do you even read other peoples posts.

The Good Friday Agreement is generally recognised as one of the most successful peace agreements of modern times.

Because you don't live here you have no idea what goes on. Protestants and catholics get on perfectly well every day and we are friends and neighbours. We just don't feel that we have to make a big song and dance about it. It is called getting on with your life.

The only bigot in this conversation is you and your hatred of the Irish is clear for all to see.

Yeah according to Stan the Good Friday Agreement did nothing and we are all back to square one, thats his level of knowledge. Ignorant troll making up republican accusations like some sort of donald trump, stan is fake news.