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1st Team Squad
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1st Team Squad
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Weren't you banging on not long ago how football is about winning trophies? Well, looking out our trophy haul over the last 15 years, compared to theirs, we have been more succesful. If you want to look at qualifying for things, then yeah they have been better, but i figured it's about the trophies. No I wasn't banging on about winning trophies? Unless you're talking about being the best of the best. Which Arsenal are not and haven't been for a longggg time. How is being in a second tier about winning trophies? Which is what this debate is about. All I'm saying is they are clearly better than us which Wilki and Duncan are trying to swerve around. We finished 2nd one year, they finish in the top 4 every year. That is quite clearly better. And whilst they desperately grasp to suggest we are in the same boat as them, the opinion that matters, top level footballers, are choosing them over us. So you agree that Arsenal aren't quite dining at the top table, but they are so far ahead of us because they signed Sanchez (but constantly lose all their best players) and scrape 4th every year (we finished second last year, by the way) that they are in their own subgroup of one??? No one is saying which team is better, but in terms of goals for each new season, Liverpool & Arsenal are clearly in the same boat, are they not??? Clearly we're never going to see eye to eye on this one, what can you do tho  I don't know why you keep adding the comparison to the top teams? I've never ever said Arsenal are there, in fact multiple times now I've said they are not. They quite clearly aren't cause they aren't winning trophies. And the only reasoning anyones been able to give (as you are all ignoring the opinion of our top target and a class professional footballer) is that it would be a bit weird to have 1 team in a tier of their own. And fair enough that is semantics then isn't it. But qualifying year after year in the Champions league clearly puts you ahead of a team that has one good season in the eyes of those who matter. Top class footballers. They lose their best players regularly so they aren't at the top table, but I have said that from second one so it doesn't add anything to this particular debate. Would I take being in Arsenal's position over ours? Finishing 2nd once in the last 5 years, or Champions league every season, a brand new modern stadium, with the footing that puts you on? Damn straight I would. It's a cut above where we are. If you want to give that the word tier or not doesn't really matter, because mine and your opinions don't matter what word you would give to it. Players like Sanchez' do, and he's already given his opinion on it and chosen the team who has regular Champions league football. There is no getting away from this fact, and the fact that it separates them from us whether you want to give that the name 'tier' or not. In football, as in all sports, who is better, is determined through achievements. How do we judge achievements, by the names of players in the team or by the performances of the actual team as a whole? I would say the latter. Since i believe we have a more impressive trophy haul over the last 15 years, maybe i am mistaken, i would say we are the more successful. More trophies=more success.....or am i deluded?
Sign Reus
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Joined: Aug 2013
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Under 23 Player
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Under 23 Player
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Weren't you banging on not long ago how football is about winning trophies? Well, looking out our trophy haul over the last 15 years, compared to theirs, we have been more succesful. If you want to look at qualifying for things, then yeah they have been better, but i figured it's about the trophies. No I wasn't banging on about winning trophies? Unless you're talking about being the best of the best. Which Arsenal are not and haven't been for a longggg time. How is being in a second tier about winning trophies? Which is what this debate is about. All I'm saying is they are clearly better than us which Wilki and Duncan are trying to swerve around. We finished 2nd one year, they finish in the top 4 every year. That is quite clearly better. And whilst they desperately grasp to suggest we are in the same boat as them, the opinion that matters, top level footballers, are choosing them over us. So you agree that Arsenal aren't quite dining at the top table, but they are so far ahead of us because they signed Sanchez (but constantly lose all their best players) and scrape 4th every year (we finished second last year, by the way) that they are in their own subgroup of one??? No one is saying which team is better, but in terms of goals for each new season, Liverpool & Arsenal are clearly in the same boat, are they not??? Clearly we're never going to see eye to eye on this one, what can you do tho I don't know why you keep adding the comparison to the top teams? I've never ever said Arsenal are there, in fact multiple times now I've said they are not. They quite clearly aren't cause they aren't winning trophies. And the only reasoning anyones been able to give (as you are all ignoring the opinion of our top target and a class professional footballer) is that it would be a bit weird to have 1 team in a tier of their own. And fair enough that is semantics then isn't it. But qualifying year after year in the Champions league clearly puts you ahead of a team that has one good season in the eyes of those who matter. Top class footballers. They lose their best players regularly so they aren't at the top table, but I have said that from second one so it doesn't add anything to this particular debate. Would I take being in Arsenal's position over ours? Finishing 2nd once in the last 5 years, or Champions league every season, a brand new modern stadium, with the footing that puts you on? Damn straight I would. It's a cut above where we are. If you want to give that the word tier or not doesn't really matter, because mine and your opinions don't matter what word you would give to it. Players like Sanchez' do, and he's already given his opinion on it and chosen the team who has regular Champions league football. There is no getting away from this fact, and the fact that it separates them from us whether you want to give that the name 'tier' or not. In football, as in all sports, who is better, is determined through achievements. How do we judge achievements, by the names of players in the team or by the performances of the actual team as a whole? I would say the latter. Since i believe we have a more impressive trophy haul over the last 15 years, maybe i am mistaken, i would say we are the more successful. More trophies=more success.....or am i deluded? I would say that you also need to look at trophies won in a more relevant timescale, i.e. the last 4 or 5 years. if a player wants to move to a successful club he is unlikely to shun Man City for us just because we have won more than them historically. His desire to join a 'successful club' will be driven by his chances of winning even more trophies rather than simply being associated with a club that used to win a lot, probably before he was even born. That and money.
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Joined: Dec 2008
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Under 23 Player
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Under 23 Player
Joined: Dec 2008
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Weren't you banging on not long ago how football is about winning trophies? Well, looking out our trophy haul over the last 15 years, compared to theirs, we have been more succesful. If you want to look at qualifying for things, then yeah they have been better, but i figured it's about the trophies. No I wasn't banging on about winning trophies? Unless you're talking about being the best of the best. Which Arsenal are not and haven't been for a longggg time. How is being in a second tier about winning trophies? Which is what this debate is about. All I'm saying is they are clearly better than us which Wilki and Duncan are trying to swerve around. We finished 2nd one year, they finish in the top 4 every year. That is quite clearly better. And whilst they desperately grasp to suggest we are in the same boat as them, the opinion that matters, top level footballers, are choosing them over us. So you agree that Arsenal aren't quite dining at the top table, but they are so far ahead of us because they signed Sanchez (but constantly lose all their best players) and scrape 4th every year (we finished second last year, by the way) that they are in their own subgroup of one??? No one is saying which team is better, but in terms of goals for each new season, Liverpool & Arsenal are clearly in the same boat, are they not??? Clearly we're never going to see eye to eye on this one, what can you do tho I don't know why you keep adding the comparison to the top teams? I've never ever said Arsenal are there, in fact multiple times now I've said they are not. They quite clearly aren't cause they aren't winning trophies. And the only reasoning anyones been able to give (as you are all ignoring the opinion of our top target and a class professional footballer) is that it would be a bit weird to have 1 team in a tier of their own. And fair enough that is semantics then isn't it. But qualifying year after year in the Champions league clearly puts you ahead of a team that has one good season in the eyes of those who matter. Top class footballers. They lose their best players regularly so they aren't at the top table, but I have said that from second one so it doesn't add anything to this particular debate. Would I take being in Arsenal's position over ours? Finishing 2nd once in the last 5 years, or Champions league every season, a brand new modern stadium, with the footing that puts you on? Damn straight I would. It's a cut above where we are. If you want to give that the word tier or not doesn't really matter, because mine and your opinions don't matter what word you would give to it. Players like Sanchez' do, and he's already given his opinion on it and chosen the team who has regular Champions league football. There is no getting away from this fact, and the fact that it separates them from us whether you want to give that the name 'tier' or not. In football, as in all sports, who is better, is determined through achievements. How do we judge achievements, by the names of players in the team or by the performances of the actual team as a whole? I would say the latter. Since i believe we have a more impressive trophy haul over the last 15 years, maybe i am mistaken, i would say we are the more successful. More trophies=more success.....or am i deluded? Agreed 1+
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Under 23 Player
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Under 23 Player
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Weren't you banging on not long ago how football is about winning trophies? Well, looking out our trophy haul over the last 15 years, compared to theirs, we have been more succesful. If you want to look at qualifying for things, then yeah they have been better, but i figured it's about the trophies. No I wasn't banging on about winning trophies? Unless you're talking about being the best of the best. Which Arsenal are not and haven't been for a longggg time. How is being in a second tier about winning trophies? Which is what this debate is about. All I'm saying is they are clearly better than us which Wilki and Duncan are trying to swerve around. We finished 2nd one year, they finish in the top 4 every year. That is quite clearly better. And whilst they desperately grasp to suggest we are in the same boat as them, the opinion that matters, top level footballers, are choosing them over us. So you agree that Arsenal aren't quite dining at the top table, but they are so far ahead of us because they signed Sanchez (but constantly lose all their best players) and scrape 4th every year (we finished second last year, by the way) that they are in their own subgroup of one??? No one is saying which team is better, but in terms of goals for each new season, Liverpool & Arsenal are clearly in the same boat, are they not??? Clearly we're never going to see eye to eye on this one, what can you do tho I don't know why you keep adding the comparison to the top teams? I've never ever said Arsenal are there, in fact multiple times now I've said they are not. They quite clearly aren't cause they aren't winning trophies. And the only reasoning anyones been able to give (as you are all ignoring the opinion of our top target and a class professional footballer) is that it would be a bit weird to have 1 team in a tier of their own. And fair enough that is semantics then isn't it. But qualifying year after year in the Champions league clearly puts you ahead of a team that has one good season in the eyes of those who matter. Top class footballers. They lose their best players regularly so they aren't at the top table, but I have said that from second one so it doesn't add anything to this particular debate. Would I take being in Arsenal's position over ours? Finishing 2nd once in the last 5 years, or Champions league every season, a brand new modern stadium, with the footing that puts you on? Damn straight I would. It's a cut above where we are. If you want to give that the word tier or not doesn't really matter, because mine and your opinions don't matter what word you would give to it. Players like Sanchez' do, and he's already given his opinion on it and chosen the team who has regular Champions league football. There is no getting away from this fact, and the fact that it separates them from us whether you want to give that the name 'tier' or not. In football, as in all sports, who is better, is determined through achievements. How do we judge achievements, by the names of players in the team or by the performances of the actual team as a whole? I would say the latter. Since i believe we have a more impressive trophy haul over the last 15 years, maybe i am mistaken, i would say we are the more successful. More trophies=more success.....or am i deluded? I would say that you also need to look at trophies won in a more relevant timescale, i.e. the last 4 or 5 years. if a player wants to move to a successful club he is unlikely to shun Man City for us just because we have won more than them historically. His desire to join a 'successful club' will be driven by his chances of winning even more trophies rather than simply being associated with a club that used to win a lot, probably before he was even born. That and money. Completely agree. Ninja has once again expanded the time scale to way beyond what modern footballers and rising stars care about. But to address his point, yes we are historically 'more successful' as measured by our trophies. What creates future success? Top players are a big factor. Would they want to go to the team who are historically mroe successful in trophies, or the team who regularly and successfully reaches the Champions league year in year out, see if you can get hold of Sanchez' mobile number, I'm sure he'd be happy to tell you Ninja. Or in fact Suarez (our best player at the time) who desperately wanted to leave us to go to Arsenal a couple of years ago. Also as Darcus says, if you have enough money, none of this matters a jot.
Last edited by bigredkop; 26/01/15 10:53 AM.
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Joined: Jun 2009
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Liverpool Legend
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Liverpool Legend
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Weren't you banging on not long ago how football is about winning trophies? Well, looking out our trophy haul over the last 15 years, compared to theirs, we have been more succesful. If you want to look at qualifying for things, then yeah they have been better, but i figured it's about the trophies. No I wasn't banging on about winning trophies? Unless you're talking about being the best of the best. Which Arsenal are not and haven't been for a longggg time. How is being in a second tier about winning trophies? Which is what this debate is about. All I'm saying is they are clearly better than us which Wilki and Duncan are trying to swerve around. We finished 2nd one year, they finish in the top 4 every year. That is quite clearly better. And whilst they desperately grasp to suggest we are in the same boat as them, the opinion that matters, top level footballers, are choosing them over us. So you agree that Arsenal aren't quite dining at the top table, but they are so far ahead of us because they signed Sanchez (but constantly lose all their best players) and scrape 4th every year (we finished second last year, by the way) that they are in their own subgroup of one??? No one is saying which team is better, but in terms of goals for each new season, Liverpool & Arsenal are clearly in the same boat, are they not??? Clearly we're never going to see eye to eye on this one, what can you do tho I don't know why you keep adding the comparison to the top teams? I've never ever said Arsenal are there, in fact multiple times now I've said they are not. They quite clearly aren't cause they aren't winning trophies. And the only reasoning anyones been able to give (as you are all ignoring the opinion of our top target and a class professional footballer) is that it would be a bit weird to have 1 team in a tier of their own. And fair enough that is semantics then isn't it. But qualifying year after year in the Champions league clearly puts you ahead of a team that has one good season in the eyes of those who matter. Top class footballers. They lose their best players regularly so they aren't at the top table, but I have said that from second one so it doesn't add anything to this particular debate. Would I take being in Arsenal's position over ours? Finishing 2nd once in the last 5 years, or Champions league every season, a brand new modern stadium, with the footing that puts you on? Damn straight I would. It's a cut above where we are. If you want to give that the word tier or not doesn't really matter, because mine and your opinions don't matter what word you would give to it. Players like Sanchez' do, and he's already given his opinion on it and chosen the team who has regular Champions league football. There is no getting away from this fact, and the fact that it separates them from us whether you want to give that the name 'tier' or not. I think you're right that they are on a better footing than us but I can't see them being a tier above us until they actually start making good use of what they have. They haven't had any ambition to win things for years hence why all their best players move on. They're content to get top 4 every year, usually 4th, and count that as their success.
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Liverpool Legend
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It begs the question still though, why are Arsenal not miles ahead of us in the revenue stakes with their better stadium , London prices and ECL football year on year? Lower wages ? Possibly. I imagine we have a bigger global fan base too.
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Liverpool Legend
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Liverpool Legend
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Weren't you banging on not long ago how football is about winning trophies? Well, looking out our trophy haul over the last 15 years, compared to theirs, we have been more succesful. If you want to look at qualifying for things, then yeah they have been better, but i figured it's about the trophies. No I wasn't banging on about winning trophies? Unless you're talking about being the best of the best. Which Arsenal are not and haven't been for a longggg time. How is being in a second tier about winning trophies? Which is what this debate is about. All I'm saying is they are clearly better than us which Wilki and Duncan are trying to swerve around. We finished 2nd one year, they finish in the top 4 every year. That is quite clearly better. And whilst they desperately grasp to suggest we are in the same boat as them, the opinion that matters, top level footballers, are choosing them over us. So you agree that Arsenal aren't quite dining at the top table, but they are so far ahead of us because they signed Sanchez (but constantly lose all their best players) and scrape 4th every year (we finished second last year, by the way) that they are in their own subgroup of one??? No one is saying which team is better, but in terms of goals for each new season, Liverpool & Arsenal are clearly in the same boat, are they not??? Clearly we're never going to see eye to eye on this one, what can you do tho I don't know why you keep adding the comparison to the top teams? I've never ever said Arsenal are there, in fact multiple times now I've said they are not. They quite clearly aren't cause they aren't winning trophies. And the only reasoning anyones been able to give (as you are all ignoring the opinion of our top target and a class professional footballer) is that it would be a bit weird to have 1 team in a tier of their own. And fair enough that is semantics then isn't it. But qualifying year after year in the Champions league clearly puts you ahead of a team that has one good season in the eyes of those who matter. Top class footballers. They lose their best players regularly so they aren't at the top table, but I have said that from second one so it doesn't add anything to this particular debate. Would I take being in Arsenal's position over ours? Finishing 2nd once in the last 5 years, or Champions league every season, a brand new modern stadium, with the footing that puts you on? Damn straight I would. It's a cut above where we are. If you want to give that the word tier or not doesn't really matter, because mine and your opinions don't matter what word you would give to it. Players like Sanchez' do, and he's already given his opinion on it and chosen the team who has regular Champions league football. There is no getting away from this fact, and the fact that it separates them from us whether you want to give that the name 'tier' or not. I think you're right that they are on a better footing than us but I can't see them being a tier above us until they actually start making good use of what they have. They haven't had any ambition to win things for years hence why all their best players move on. They're content to get top 4 every year, usually 4th, and count that as their success. They had to pay for their stadium, this is why they were selling their best players. Now that the stadium is paid for, they are among the highest spenders in the league, but funny enough, their fortunes on the pitch hasn't changed yet.
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I think you're right that they are on a better footing than us but I can't see them being a tier above us until they actually start making good use of what they have. They haven't had any ambition to win things for years hence why all their best players move on. They're content to get top 4 every year, usually 4th, and count that as their success.
Can't really argue with that, they absolutely don't show title winning ambition. They didn't want to sign fabregas whereas I think a title chasing team would have and bought sanchez. Like I said it's where you place your tier partitions, they absolutely aren't amazing title chasers, and like you say they seem to say they want titles but only achieve top 4 and don't even come close to a championship, but right now I would take that for Liverpool as it would move the club forward in who we could sign and the money we would have.
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1st Team Squad
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Jesus, this thread still going...  
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,205
1st Team Squad
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1st Team Squad
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Whether we are better than arsenal or Spurs is a matter for debate but we are clearly no longer a top club which we once were in fact we were once britains most succesful club which is why most of us still follow them to this day. But that is a cup with big hole in it draining by the day Sandwiched in the middle of them, but very much tied together with the two given the targets for each team at the start of each season... title hopes a dream, Champions league qualification a success and a cup win a fair possibility... can't say the teams above or below these three go into a new season with the same targets - pretty much puts us all in the same basket I would have thought..
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