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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 22,394
Liverpool Legend
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Liverpool Legend
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 22,394 |
Arsenal are only marginally better than us. They show no real ambition to win things as is shown by all the good players that have jumped ship. They've only spent big twice too and Ozil has been nothing short of a failure. Before that their biggest transfer was Reyes I think all those years ago.
They maintain their position and nothing more so can't see how they can be second tier and us third? Well I guess it is subjective where you draw your partitions. I think we can all agree that they aren't top tier. So the only question left is why is there a difference between us and them? I've outlined it a lot now, but you don't have to agree that's fine, Sanchez does though and unfortunately it's his opinion that counts. Getting consistent Champions league football is absolutely massive and sets you apart in the eyes of the footballing world. So for me we can't be in the same tier as them as players quite clearly don't think we are, as we can't attract big name players and they can. They get the revenue from Champions league each year too. And have a brand spanking new modern stadium and we are going for a patch up job. I can't really make it any clearer, there are quite obviously things that set them apart and ahead of us, the (arguably) best Premier league player this year so far says so himself, but fair enough if you don't think those numerous things warrant a partition of a whole other tier, because its just semantics. They quite clearly have a number of important advantages ahead of us, and that showed in the summer when we went after the same high profile target, despite us nearly winning a title. So where is all that revenue going? With all that money coming in surely they should be challenging every year and going for every big player they can should they not? Instead they buy two, just two decent players one if which has been turd for them. If they had any ambition all the players that left would still be there wouldn't they? And shall we see how long Sanchez stays too? They are top of tier two as you put it but nog that much further up than us.
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 8,791
1st Team Squad
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1st Team Squad
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 8,791 |
I think you'll find our wages and theres are reasonably similar - they've only won one trophy in the last nine years and rarely finish higher than 4th.... take your blinkers off pal. Wage structures. The difference in the 'better players' in their squad is about 20,000 pound a week if not more. They regularly finish inside champions league places, in fact every year. We have once. And you say I'm wearing blinkers? Look at yourself and your Joke of a statement. Bigger modern stadium already paid for. Top player signed in each of the last 2 years. Salary structure bigger and better. Regular Champions League football, the thing that our TOP target chose Arsenal for over us according to our TOP target himself. You're living in cloud cuckoo land if you think we are on their level. We are closer to spurs. Also rans, try to win a cup, occasionally get into the champions league. I actually agree with bigredkop as far as the statement that we are not in the same bracket as Arsenal. We are BETTER, just look at the trophy cabinet over the last 15 years..the trophies don lie. And that's why us Liverpool fans get a bad rep. You're living in the past. If this is a conversation about historically who is the bigger club in England then sure Liverpool wipe the floor with Arsenal. If we want to be realistic and look at how the clubs are moving forward. Arsenal top for every year for the last 5 years. FA cup winners > league cup winners. our TOP target chose them over us because he considers them in a higher tier due to Champions league football. The trophies don't lie? If you want to play around in your memory ninja then be my guest but it serves as little help for Liverpool currently. The world over considers Arsenal as a higher tier club than Liverpool. That's why Ozil and Sanchez chose them. Now THAT doesn't lie. So how big is your second tier of prem teams then - can't be just 1 team surely??? The top three are pretty obvious even with Utd having a bit of a blip, but given their money and success they are still realistically up there with Chelsea & City. The teams that usually fight for the league. Arsenal on the other hand, would in my opinion be at the top end of a second cluster of clubs including ourselves and Spurs. Teams that generally challenge for fourth and not much more. There's always another team that joins this group each season but never really last - Newcastle, nEverton, Southampton ect. The rest arrange themselves on a season by season basis - just the way I see it  Well if you are pitching them at the top of some second cluster of clubs then there is very little between our opinions. It's clearly just how we rate Champions league football. For me personally, I would (as do players like Sanchez seemingly) consider regular Champions league football to be something that sets a club significantly apart from teams that don't get it. So for me that separates a tier. But if your partition is between competing for the title and not competing for the title but has had Champions league football in the past however many years fair enough. But the big players around the world don't seem to share that view unfortunately. I wish they did, where would be with sanchez this season? Likely not so desparate for Sturridge back as like you say Arsenal haven't been that great. Weren't you banging on not long ago how football is about winning trophies? Well, looking out our trophy haul over the last 15 years, compared to theirs, we have been more succesful. If you want to look at qualifying for things, then yeah they have been better, but i figured it's about the trophies.
Sign Reus
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 8,564
1st Team Squad
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1st Team Squad
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 8,564 |
[quote=Duncan_Donut]I think you'll find our wages and theres are reasonably similar - they've only won one trophy in the last nine years and rarely finish higher than 4th.... take your blinkers off pal. Wage structures. The difference in the 'better players' in their squad is about 20,000 pound a week if not more. They regularly finish inside champions league places, in fact every year. We have once. And you say I'm wearing blinkers? Look at yourself and your Joke of a statement. Bigger modern stadium already paid for. Top player signed in each of the last 2 years. Salary structure bigger and better. Regular Champions League football, the thing that our TOP target chose Arsenal for over us according to our TOP target himself. You're living in cloud cuckoo land if you think we are on their level. We are closer to spurs. Also rans, try to win a cup, occasionally get into the champions league. I actually agree with bigredkop as far as the statement that we are not in the same bracket as Arsenal. We are BETTER, just look at the trophy cabinet over the last 15 years..the trophies don lie. And that's why us Liverpool fans get a bad rep. You're living in the past. If this is a conversation about historically who is the bigger club in England then sure Liverpool wipe the floor with Arsenal. If we want to be realistic and look at how the clubs are moving forward. Arsenal top for every year for the last 5 years. FA cup winners > league cup winners. our TOP target chose them over us because he considers them in a higher tier due to Champions league football. The trophies don't lie? If you want to play around in your memory ninja then be my guest but it serves as little help for Liverpool currently. The world over considers Arsenal as a higher tier club than Liverpool. That's why Ozil and Sanchez chose them. Now THAT doesn't lie. So how big is your second tier of prem teams then - can't be just 1 team surely??? The top three are pretty obvious even with Utd having a bit of a blip, but given their money and success they are still realistically up there with Chelsea & City. The teams that usually fight for the league. Arsenal on the other hand, would in my opinion be at the top end of a second cluster of clubs including ourselves and Spurs. Teams that generally challenge for fourth and not much more. There's always another team that joins this group each season but never really last - Newcastle, nEverton, Southampton ect. The rest arrange themselves on a season by season basis - just the way I see it Well if you are pitching them at the top of some second cluster of clubs then there is very little between our opinions. It's clearly just how we rate Champions league football. For me personally, I would (as do players like Sanchez seemingly) consider regular Champions league football to be something that sets a club significantly apart from teams that don't get it. So for me that separates a tier. But if your partition is between competing for the title and not competing for the title but has had Champions league football in the past however many years fair enough. But the big players around the world don't seem to share that view unfortunately. I wish they did, where would be with sanchez this season? Likely not so desparate for Sturridge back as like you say Arsenal haven't been that great. Weren't you banging on not long ago how football is about winning trophies? Well, looking out our trophy haul over the last 15 years, compared to theirs, we have been more succesful. If you want to look at qualifying for things, then yeah they have been better, but i figured it's about the trophies. [/quote] +1. In the pat 10 years, the've won 2 FA cups. We've won an FA cup, a Champions' League, and a League Cup. They may have been in the CL more than we have, but they've never won it, and I don't think they ever will.
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 27,628
Liverpool Legend
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Liverpool Legend
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 27,628 |
Whether we are better than arsenal or Spurs is a matter for debate but we are clearly no longer a top club which we once were in fact we were once britains most succesful club which is why most of us still follow them to this day. But that is a cup with big hole in it draining by the day
IF YOU WANT TO BE HEARD SPEAK SOFTLY - BOB PAISLEY
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 22,926
Liverpool Legend
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Liverpool Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 22,926 |
From what I can see FSG have increased our sposorship revenue ten fold Stan - the money has clearly been there for players also.. it's more the strategy and the type of players we've been targeting that have held us back. As for growing up with the great teams of years gone by Stan.. football has changed so much, both on and off the field, it's almost unrecognisable  We can't compete with the cities & chavs - Utd to an extent also... in all fairness only a handful of clubs in world football as a whole can. Excluding the rich kids, we are up there with the best of the rest.. Best of the rest, oh dear how the mighty have fallen! Best of the rest reminds me of that line: "when he was up he was up, and when he was down he was down, but when he was in the middle, he was neither up nor down". And here we are suspended in the middle, with little prospect of going up and every prospect of going down! However FSG won't mind too much as long as the loot keeps rolling in, what surprises me though, is the extent to which some fans are prepared to accept and even defend these policies. One question, how much do you think FSG has 'looted' as you've put it, so far? If you cannot answer it will mean you are bullshitting to me.
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 22,926
Liverpool Legend
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Liverpool Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 22,926 |
So you agree that Arsenal aren't quite dining at the top table, but they are so far ahead of us because they signed Sanchez (but constantly lose all their best players) and scrape 4th every year (we finished second last year, by the way) that they are in their own subgroup of one??? No one is saying which team is better, but in terms of goals for each new season, Liverpool & Arsenal are clearly in the same boat, are they not??? Clearly we're never going to see eye to eye on this one, what can you do tho I would say we are in the 2nd tier with Arsenal and Spurs though Arsenal is the better team in this tier 2. Otherwise Arsenal will stand alone in tier 2, this should close the debate. It's about the same on the revenue front.
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 22,394
Liverpool Legend
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Liverpool Legend
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 22,394 |
It begs the question still though, why are Arsenal not miles ahead of us in the revenue stakes with their better stadium , London prices and ECL football year on year?
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,813
Under 23 Player
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Under 23 Player
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,813 |
I think lot of players use the "I want CL football" as a thinly disguised excuse for wanting more money. Typically, the CL teams pay more but surely a player wants to compete to win the CL, not just take part.
Would a player go to Ludogorets for "CL football" rather than join LFC?
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,381
Under 23 Player
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Under 23 Player
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,381 |
Weren't you banging on not long ago how football is about winning trophies? Well, looking out our trophy haul over the last 15 years, compared to theirs, we have been more succesful. If you want to look at qualifying for things, then yeah they have been better, but i figured it's about the trophies. No I wasn't banging on about winning trophies? Unless you're talking about being the best of the best. Which Arsenal are not and haven't been for a longggg time. How is being in a second tier about winning trophies? Which is what this debate is about. All I'm saying is they are clearly better than us which Wilki and Duncan are trying to swerve around. We finished 2nd one year, they finish in the top 4 every year. That is quite clearly better. And whilst they desperately grasp to suggest we are in the same boat as them, the opinion that matters, top level footballers, are choosing them over us. So you agree that Arsenal aren't quite dining at the top table, but they are so far ahead of us because they signed Sanchez (but constantly lose all their best players) and scrape 4th every year (we finished second last year, by the way) that they are in their own subgroup of one??? No one is saying which team is better, but in terms of goals for each new season, Liverpool & Arsenal are clearly in the same boat, are they not??? Clearly we're never going to see eye to eye on this one, what can you do tho I don't know why you keep adding the comparison to the top teams? I've never ever said Arsenal are there, in fact multiple times now I've said they are not. They quite clearly aren't cause they aren't winning trophies. And the only reasoning anyones been able to give (as you are all ignoring the opinion of our top target and a class professional footballer) is that it would be a bit weird to have 1 team in a tier of their own. And fair enough that is semantics then isn't it. But qualifying year after year in the Champions league clearly puts you ahead of a team that has one good season in the eyes of those who matter. Top class footballers. They lose their best players regularly so they aren't at the top table, but I have said that from second one so it doesn't add anything to this particular debate. Would I take being in Arsenal's position over ours? Finishing 2nd once in the last 5 years, or Champions league every season, a brand new modern stadium, with the footing that puts you on? Damn straight I would. It's a cut above where we are. If you want to give that the word tier or not doesn't really matter, because mine and your opinions don't matter what word you would give to it. Players like Sanchez' do, and he's already given his opinion on it and chosen the team who has regular Champions league football. There is no getting away from this fact, and the fact that it separates them from us whether you want to give that the name 'tier' or not.
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,381
Under 23 Player
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Under 23 Player
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,381 |
I think lot of players use the "I want CL football" as a thinly disguised excuse for wanting more money. Typically, the CL teams pay more but surely a player wants to compete to win the CL, not just take part.
Would a player go to Ludogorets for "CL football" rather than join LFC? I very much doubt it, but I think the foremost desire would be to play in a top league. Secondary to that is I want Champions League football. But running alongside all of that is if you throw enough money at player he will forgo those desires cause he wants to be richer than he currently is (don't we all), but like you say Liverpool cannot afford to do that can we?
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