KopTalk.com Forums Football Liverpool FC Forum Common Sense

"My point regarding xenophobic rags is simple enough to understand - the English press is high on hating people who go against the norms, particularly foreigners, and very much in favour of a local man. I asked if you were simply regurgitating their opinion - if you decide that means I believe you are xenophobic then that's your decision to make; I expected you to understand the difference, but apparently I was wrong.

I agree that winning the league is bigger than winning the CL - I would say that the EPL is probably the only league in Europe where this is true. But it's the next best thing, and I'll take whatever I can. We haven't had the squad to win the league since the 80s - times changed and we did not, and nowadays you can't win the league with just your best 14 anymore (though it sounds like you want us to try).

LFC has never been big on investment; the occasional marquee signing besides. Under H&G we had no choice but to shop for bargains, and the squad suffered as a result; we've sold our stars and bought rubbish in their stead. But that's not entirely the fault of the manager, be he Ged or Rafa, though certainly they could have done better. And until the last manager we had no youth system to speak of. We weren't growing them at home, and we weren't prepared to spend on imported goods; we were never going to win the league like that, were we?

And I'm not a "younger fan", btw. Been supporting the club going on 25 years now."

Where I grew up not criticise something was to condone it, so to regurgitate xenophobic rag was to support it, to be xenophobic. So yes you were wrong, I don’t condone xenophobia – every intelligent football commentator in the media and TV regarded zonal defending as a catastrophe – a quick tally on the amount of goals we conceded cheaply from corners where players were afraid to attack the ball is proof of this.

I’m sorry, but if you believe Glen Johnson (16.5m) Aquilani (20m) Keane (20m) are bargains well what can I say. They are very poor buys that indicate a lack of common sense and typify a culture of waste at this club that has to stop.

I’m glad you brought up the issue of the youth structure – that was expressed in my original post which you dismissed as being overly critical – thanks for regurgitating my posts in defence of me having a go at you for you having a go at me – this is a playful merry-go-round of ineptitude.

common sense tells me I should not read anymore of this thread as it's a waste of time!

We grew up in different areas then. The commentary I have seen elsewhere on this forum suggests the press has a great influence on the average fan, whether they support the overall tone of the paper/tv or not. You are clearly not so easily swayed, so I apologize for painting you with the same brush.

It's known that using zonal marking to defend set pieces requires discipline. I believe I said that already. I also said that other teams using man marking conceded more than us from set pieces, particularly Chelsea who won the league despite it. The point remains - a clean sheet every other game for 4 seasons is a remarkable achievement, especially when done with a squad not capable of winning silverware without Steven Gerrard. You cannot say it has no merit when properly applied, but all I could hear on the commentary was that it didn't work despite the fact that it was working, and always from those who were eager to find fault with Rafa.



And you're not prepared to look at why Rafa bought them, that half his plans regarding the purchase of the latter two never materialized? Water under the bridge tho - no point discussing them. Johnson is an awful defender; but that's not why Rafa bought him. He bought him because we were drawing too many games against sides that parked the bus; he was to be the extra man coming in. Sorry, but opponents don't park the bus against you unless they realize they won't score - oh dear, were we using zonal marking when half the teams in the league were terrified of us? Impossible! Getting back to Johnson, no sooner is he getting a regular game and we're knocking them in from everywhere than our midfield implodes, and now he finds himself playing for a manager who is allergic to attacking. Rafa didn't have a great deal of investment post buying Torres, and he probably knew he would never have a truly solid squad as a result. So he built a glass cannon out of the squad. Sadly the cannon has now run out of ammunition.



I didn't miss that, and if you look at what I wrote I was agreeing with you on this point. I wasn't having a go at everything. "You started well..." I believe I said. We both believe that the club has failed to gain the greatest prize - the league. We both believe the lack of a youth system is part of this. We both believe poor player purchases and general squad mismanagement is part of this. But you seem to have left out the ownership problem - funny how everyone has forgotten about the H&G factor now that they're "out of sight, out of mind". Rafa spent a lot of time railing against them, and ultimately the fans did too; but no one goes back and thinks, "You know, maybe Rafa wasn't just being proud and arrogant; maybe he was right".

For reference, if you go back and read your initial post you will see that you had a great deal to say about how badly we have been mismanaged over the past 20 years, and while much of it can't be faulted, putting it all together like that really just reads like someone wanting to have a gripe. Sorry if that wasn't your intention, but that was how I read it.

You're obviously a huge Rafa fan and as i said I've a lot of time for him because I really think his heart is genuinely at our club and no other .... I take your point about H&G and yes it's sad we'll never find out if he could have done it with proper funding, but I can't see him coming back. I'm not so sure he could have done it with proper funding - eve two seasons ago we lost points to teams we should have hammered and his rant at fergie was self-destructive . ... I think he was a little short to win the league at a management level ... but am I grateful for the success he did bring and some of the best anfield nights ever, yes, do I like the guy, yes, would I have him back .....? I'd prefer him to RH any day but he wont get the funding or the control from NESV that his personality demands. So for now it's got to be Kenny till may and then take it from there. Now, no more spats, let's hope the new year brings the club much better fortunes. Happy New Year to you Thundyr.

Those 'rants at fergie' were actually 'facts'

I'm not afraid to admit I enjoyed Rafa's tenure under the club, except for the glaring errors of judgment he made last season. He was no saint, but he stood up to established regime, was endlessly criticized despite or perhaps because of his success and perhaps importantly because his success in these manc times was with Liverpool, gave us a night to remember in Istanbul, and more than that he "got" the club; was proud to be manager of Liverpool. People say the current players don't have pride in the shirt while forgetting how important it is that the manager must have that same pride; who else are they going to take their cue from?

He had help weakening the squad to the point it was at when Roy took over, but certainly his failure to find people better than some of the dross he bought is a large black mark against him. However I'm not going to stand by when people who seem like they should know better begin to criticize methods that made him the best manager since Dalglish. Maybe what he did challenged our preconceptions about things like zonal marking, and while we certainly conceded many goals from set pieces I would hesitate to say the system was a waste of time because we kept so many clean sheets as well - not just in one season, but in every one after we got a keeper who could work with it. That sounds more like the press just having another go for old times sake, so I hope you can understand where that comment came from.

Despite this I'm not one who wants him back; not now anyway. He'd be on a hiding to nothing; if you think the way he was treated by the press in his earlier stint was bad, that would be nothing compared to the scrutiny he would be under now. Most of the squad he failed is still here too; even Torres admitted Rafa had to go, and that's the man who made him the striker that terrorized every defense in Europe until this season. It wouldn't work, much as we might hope it would, and that is why I also fear for Kenny if he's appointed - if he can't inspire them in the first 3 or 4 games he'll be dead in the water, and lets not forget that FA Cup clash at Old Trafford is one of those (though maybe that game might just be the catalyst we need - as they say in the East, "Things happen for a reason").

We needed a caretaker manager to ensure the sale went smoothly (Rafa would definitely have been a showstopper for anyone looking to buy the club but wanting control of spending), but instead we got a guy who got 2 of his previous 3 EPL clubs relegated, and they gave him a 3 year contract with a payout clause if he behaved badly! If the new owners was going to dislike the manager, then Purslow should just have stayed with Rafa rather than doing that. At least then Rafa could be entirely responsible for the squad's implosion (should it have come), rather than everyone spending 6 months blaming him for Roy's failures when it's clear now that Roy didn't need any help destroying what we had.

Oh, on the point of the Fergie rant - still not having a go here, just more commentary - not only was he not wrong (witness the number of 96th minute goals they scored thereafter, and that ridiculous penalty against Spurs) but the timing sure was interesting, don't you think? You know, coming so soon after Gerrard was arrested, and all... Maybe Fergie really had got to him, but some people do interesting things to deflect media attention is all I'm saying.



No spats? I like me a good argument! Happy New Year, mate. Hope it's a good one for you and your family, as well as for our football.