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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 23,084
Liverpool Legend
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Liverpool Legend
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 23,084 |
Nobody can coach the shittt out of a crap keeper.
That job interview was going so well until I realized I was fukked up on acid in the middle of a cornfield naked and talking to a scarecrow.
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Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 6,054
1st Team Squad
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1st Team Squad
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 6,054 |
Alisson cost 15 times the amount Karius did, we have been buying mid level GK for years and hoping they turn into top quality over time, if you want the best, you have to pay for it, as we have with Alisson, shock, we ended up with a top class keeper who wins us point and keeps us in knock out competitions!
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 8,564
1st Team Squad
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1st Team Squad
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 8,564 |
We have been buying hopefuls, trying to turn them into the finished article.
Mignolet was in relegation scrapping Sunderland before we bought him. He's gone from bottom-feeders to uppermidtable. Decent, but not great. His distribution got a bit better. Can pull out good saves, and even save a few pens, but his concentration isn't good enough to be an elite keeper, and he isn't good enough with his feet.
Karius was promising when we bought him, but he was at a midtable club in Germany and very raw. Before the final he was doing quite alright, but it was a calamitous performance and the pressure and failure broke him.
Alisson is an elite keeper. Achtenburg just has to keep him fit and sharp, and he seems to be doing that pretty well. But I'm sure you know better than Klopp.
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Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 5,936
1st Team Squad
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1st Team Squad
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 5,936 |
An interesting article I found... John Achterberg: Friend or Foe?BY LUKE BARRETT AUGUST 29, 2018 With the signing of Alisson Becker from AS Roma, Jürgen Klopp appears to have finally addressed one of the biggest problem positions that Liverpool have had in recent times. Simon Mignolet and Loris Karius both had a crack at becoming the mainstay between the sticks. Both failed. So, how did previous managers and Liverpool’s transfer committee deem these players to be good enough to play at such a high standard whilst being so catastrophically wrong? After months of thorough scouting and analysing, you’d think that a club of Liverpool’s stature would be able to identify targets capable of performing at a high standard. Well, maybe there is another explanation. John AchterbergJohn Achterberg is Liverpool’s current goalkeeping coach. The Dutchman used to play in goal for NAC Breda and FC Eindhoven before making a switch to Tranmere Rovers in 1998. Here, he went on to make 351 appearances before retiring in 2009. Achterberg was offered the role of youth goalkeeping coach at Liverpool during Rafa Benitez’s time in charge. In 2011, the ex-Tranmere Rovers number 1 was promoted by Kenny Dalglish to Liverpool’s first team coaching staff. He is the only coach to remain part of the first team coaching setup since before Brendan Rodgers’ appointment. This is somewhat bizarre, considering that Jürgen Klopp brought the likes of Zeljko Buvac and Peter Krawietz to the club when he became The Reds’ manager in 2015. How did a coach with such little experience at the highest level survive the German’s overhaul? Jürgen Klopp’s decision to keep Achterberg in his role probably came from the fact that he is one of very few goalkeeping coaches in the Premier League to have obtained a UEFA Pro Licence. Coupled with the fact that Klopp has publicly stated that he admires the Dutchman’s work ethic, there was seemingly no need to replace him. However, Liverpool legend Bruce Grobbelaar – has publicly criticised Achterberg on more than one occasion, stating that it was not Mignolet’s fault for his inconsistencies after 2 years at the club, but “the person who is coaching him.” Whilst few fans will be convinced that Mignolet was ever good enough to be Liverpool’s long-term number 1, it does raise an interesting point. With better coaching, would the Belgian have suffered such a traumatic time at Anfield, laden with so many mistakes? Mignolet’s DownfallMignolet was signed from Sunderland on the back of some very impressive showings during the 2012/13 Premier League season. During his debut season with the Anfield club, Mignolet averaged 1.97 saves per game and 1.7 saves per goal. Compared to last season, the difference is truly shocking. The Belgian managed only 1.05 saves per game and 0.95 saves per goal. Mignolet’s statistics have never been elite, however, a drastic decline in ability is evident in this comparison. Those statistics in his final year as Liverpool’s first choice keeper are some of the worst in the league.
The ex-Sunderland player also completed far fewer punches and catches per 90 minutes during the 2017/18 campaign, with catches dropping from 2.24 to 1.47 per game and punches from 0.76 to 0.21 per game. Whilst it would be easy to say that Mignolet’s downfall is due to his own inability, you can’t ignore the glaring difference in his ability before and after Achterberg became his coach. The Decline of KariusLoris Karius endured one of the worst performances of a goalkeeper I can remember during Liverpool’s Champions League final defeat to Real Madrid back in May. The young German made 2 horrific errors that both led to Madrid goals, and then ultimately his exit from the club. A few seasons ago, Loris Karius was one of the Bundesliga’s most exciting prospects. He was voted the 2nd best keeper in the league during his time at Mainz. It’s easy to see why. During his final season at the German club, Karius made 2.5 saves per game and 2.07 saves per goal conceded. In comparison, last season for Liverpool in the Premier League, he made just 1.47 saves per game and 2 saves per goal conceded. Loris Karius is still young for a goalkeeper and to see a player with so much ability decline so drastically is very concerning. At just 25, the ex-Bundesliga star should have been improving at Liverpool as he grew towards his very high potential, not getting worse. The Alisson TestNow, I don’t want to fully place the blame on Liverpool’s goalkeeping coach, however, he has overseen 2 goalkeepers fail to make the grade. Both Loris Karius and Simon Mignolet have looked bereft of confidence during their time on Merseyside. It is also evident that both keepers performed far worse after being coached by John Achterberg. Whilst I trust Jürgen Klopp’s ability to pick quality coaches, I can’t help but think that Achterberg could be upgraded on. If in a year’s time, Liverpool fans find themselves in a situation where they are watching Alisson Becker consistently make errors and play far worse than when he joined, then Achterberg has to go. The Brazilian is currently one of the best goalkeepers in the world. So please, John. Not with Alisson. https://liverpoolfchq.com/analysis/john-achterberg-liverpool-analysis-statistics
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 8,564
1st Team Squad
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1st Team Squad
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 8,564 |
Yeah, that's great, but you're not including the context of playing for Sunderland or Mainz as opposed to Liverpool. You're cherry picking stats that suit your point, and not looking at the whole pictures.
In 2012-13 at Sunderland, he conceded an average 1.42 goals per game, much higher than at Liverpool. He was facing more shots, and was constantly under the kosh. He never had long periods where his team was dominating before suddenly having to make a big save. It's a completely different animal. He also had an abysmal distribution rate of 46%.
But the season before (2016-17) Mignolet had the season of his career. Average goals conceded of 1.07 per match. Career low (compared to 1.42 at Sunderland). His distribution rate was 67%. Do his saves per game and saves per goal look as rosy as at sunderland? No, because he's facing fewer shots and having to make fewer saves, relying less on pure reflex than concentration. They're still a repspectable. 1.53 saves per goal and 1.64 per game. The fewer punches and catches are meaningless. Of course more balls are going into Sunderland's box than Liverpool.
There isn't enough data to talk about Karius one way or the other. He never even played a full season for us.
The cherry picked out of context stats you are using don't tell the full story, because you're ignoring the different environments he's playing in and ignoring the metrics that actually did improve.
Last edited by redordead13; 12/12/18 11:46 PM.
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 22,394
Liverpool Legend
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Liverpool Legend
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 22,394 |
An interesting article I found... John Achterberg: Friend or Foe?BY LUKE BARRETT AUGUST 29, 2018 With the signing of Alisson Becker from AS Roma, Jürgen Klopp appears to have finally addressed one of the biggest problem positions that Liverpool have had in recent times. Simon Mignolet and Loris Karius both had a crack at becoming the mainstay between the sticks. Both failed. So, how did previous managers and Liverpool’s transfer committee deem these players to be good enough to play at such a high standard whilst being so catastrophically wrong? After months of thorough scouting and analysing, you’d think that a club of Liverpool’s stature would be able to identify targets capable of performing at a high standard. Well, maybe there is another explanation. John AchterbergJohn Achterberg is Liverpool’s current goalkeeping coach. The Dutchman used to play in goal for NAC Breda and FC Eindhoven before making a switch to Tranmere Rovers in 1998. Here, he went on to make 351 appearances before retiring in 2009. Achterberg was offered the role of youth goalkeeping coach at Liverpool during Rafa Benitez’s time in charge. In 2011, the ex-Tranmere Rovers number 1 was promoted by Kenny Dalglish to Liverpool’s first team coaching staff. He is the only coach to remain part of the first team coaching setup since before Brendan Rodgers’ appointment. This is somewhat bizarre, considering that Jürgen Klopp brought the likes of Zeljko Buvac and Peter Krawietz to the club when he became The Reds’ manager in 2015. How did a coach with such little experience at the highest level survive the German’s overhaul? Jürgen Klopp’s decision to keep Achterberg in his role probably came from the fact that he is one of very few goalkeeping coaches in the Premier League to have obtained a UEFA Pro Licence. Coupled with the fact that Klopp has publicly stated that he admires the Dutchman’s work ethic, there was seemingly no need to replace him. However, Liverpool legend Bruce Grobbelaar – has publicly criticised Achterberg on more than one occasion, stating that it was not Mignolet’s fault for his inconsistencies after 2 years at the club, but “the person who is coaching him.” Whilst few fans will be convinced that Mignolet was ever good enough to be Liverpool’s long-term number 1, it does raise an interesting point. With better coaching, would the Belgian have suffered such a traumatic time at Anfield, laden with so many mistakes? Mignolet’s DownfallMignolet was signed from Sunderland on the back of some very impressive showings during the 2012/13 Premier League season. During his debut season with the Anfield club, Mignolet averaged 1.97 saves per game and 1.7 saves per goal. Compared to last season, the difference is truly shocking. The Belgian managed only 1.05 saves per game and 0.95 saves per goal. Mignolet’s statistics have never been elite, however, a drastic decline in ability is evident in this comparison. Those statistics in his final year as Liverpool’s first choice keeper are some of the worst in the league.
The ex-Sunderland player also completed far fewer punches and catches per 90 minutes during the 2017/18 campaign, with catches dropping from 2.24 to 1.47 per game and punches from 0.76 to 0.21 per game. Whilst it would be easy to say that Mignolet’s downfall is due to his own inability, you can’t ignore the glaring difference in his ability before and after Achterberg became his coach. The Decline of KariusLoris Karius endured one of the worst performances of a goalkeeper I can remember during Liverpool’s Champions League final defeat to Real Madrid back in May. The young German made 2 horrific errors that both led to Madrid goals, and then ultimately his exit from the club. A few seasons ago, Loris Karius was one of the Bundesliga’s most exciting prospects. He was voted the 2nd best keeper in the league during his time at Mainz. It’s easy to see why. During his final season at the German club, Karius made 2.5 saves per game and 2.07 saves per goal conceded. In comparison, last season for Liverpool in the Premier League, he made just 1.47 saves per game and 2 saves per goal conceded. Loris Karius is still young for a goalkeeper and to see a player with so much ability decline so drastically is very concerning. At just 25, the ex-Bundesliga star should have been improving at Liverpool as he grew towards his very high potential, not getting worse. The Alisson TestNow, I don’t want to fully place the blame on Liverpool’s goalkeeping coach, however, he has overseen 2 goalkeepers fail to make the grade. Both Loris Karius and Simon Mignolet have looked bereft of confidence during their time on Merseyside. It is also evident that both keepers performed far worse after being coached by John Achterberg. Whilst I trust Jürgen Klopp’s ability to pick quality coaches, I can’t help but think that Achterberg could be upgraded on. If in a year’s time, Liverpool fans find themselves in a situation where they are watching Alisson Becker consistently make errors and play far worse than when he joined, then Achterberg has to go. The Brazilian is currently one of the best goalkeepers in the world. So please, John. Not with Alisson. https://liverpoolfchq.com/analysis/john-achterberg-liverpool-analysis-statistics Do you think either Migs or Karius were good enough when they signed? Do you think they were at Alissons level?
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Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 5,936
1st Team Squad
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1st Team Squad
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 5,936 |
Achterberg after retiring from playing/coaching in 2009 with Tranmere Rovers joined Liverpool FC in June 2009 as a goalkeeping coach of the reserve and academy goalkeepers before being promoted to first-team goalkeeping coach in summer 2011.
He's been our 1st Team GoalKeeping Coach now for 7 1/2 years, in this time he has coached:
Pepe Reina
Brad Jones
Doni
Peter Gulácsi
Danny Ward
Ryan Fulton
Adam Bogdan
Loris Karius
Alex Manninger
Kamil Grabara
and now Alisson
Giving him the benefit of the doubt on Reina, Jones & Doni because he inherited them when he was made 1st Team GoalKeeping Coach even though he was around a further 2 years prior as Reserve Team GoalKeeping Coach.
The facts are Achterberg has had a hand in giving his judgement and Coaching 7 GoalKeepers before we got Alisson in. It's been his job to identify Keepers he can work with and improve, no matter what the price tag has been or where they came from. Not 1 of those Keepers has improved in his time with us!
If Alisson was to get injured now for any lengthy amount of time we'd be seriously fcuked because we haven't even got a backup that we could be confident in and that is down to Achterberg.
The last time we won a trophy was 2011/12 season coincidentally the season Achterberg became 1st Team GoalKeeping Coach - The League Cup. Since then a good chunk of our time has been spent on watching a long list of calamities more often than not made by The GoalKeepers Achterberg has been responsible for.
7 1/2 years just think about that? not one Keeper improved to the point we'd be confident of them as being even a backup Keeper?
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 22,926
Liverpool Legend
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Liverpool Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 22,926 |
Achterberg after retiring from playing/coaching in 2009 with Tranmere Rovers joined Liverpool FC in June 2009 as a goalkeeping coach of the reserve and academy goalkeepers before being promoted to first-team goalkeeping coach in summer 2011.
He's been our 1st Team GoalKeeping Coach now for 7 1/2 years, in this time he has coached:
Pepe Reina
Brad Jones
Doni
Peter Gulácsi
Danny Ward
Ryan Fulton
Adam Bogdan
Loris Karius
Alex Manninger
Kamil Grabara
and now Alisson
Giving him the benefit of the doubt on Reina, Jones & Doni because he inherited them when he was made 1st Team GoalKeeping Coach even though he was around a further 2 years prior as Reserve Team GoalKeeping Coach.
The facts are Achterberg has had a hand in giving his judgement and Coaching 7 GoalKeepers before we got Alisson in. It's been his job to identify Keepers he can work with and improve, no matter what the price tag has been or where they came from. Not 1 of those Keepers has improved in his time with us!
If Alisson was to get injured now for any lengthy amount of time we'd be seriously fcuked because we haven't even got a backup that we could be confident in and that is down to Achterberg.
The last time we won a trophy was 2011/12 season coincidentally the season Achterberg became 1st Team GoalKeeping Coach - The League Cup. Since then a good chunk of our time has been spent on watching a long list of calamities more often than not made by The GoalKeepers Achterberg has been responsible for.
7 1/2 years just think about that? not one Keeper improved to the point we'd be confident of them as being even a backup Keeper?
How is it that Klopp or others in the coaching staff haven't seen this?
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Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 5,936
1st Team Squad
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1st Team Squad
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 5,936 |
I don't know Vish!
Never has the World been as small in getting information, watching GoalKeepers in the furthest points of the globe with most leagues televised and stats for those Keepers at the touch of a finger.
Achterberg can be the most hardworking person around Anfield and Melwood. He can be an absolute wiz in getting his UEFA Coaching badge, he can a wonderful person to speak to... but when it comes down to it, experience and with it success comes with having the ability to excel in your chosen field. Could it be Achterberg is just a sh*tty Coach and doesn't have the foundation to become any better?
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 22,394
Liverpool Legend
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Liverpool Legend
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 22,394 |
Achterberg after retiring from playing/coaching in 2009 with Tranmere Rovers joined Liverpool FC in June 2009 as a goalkeeping coach of the reserve and academy goalkeepers before being promoted to first-team goalkeeping coach in summer 2011.
He's been our 1st Team GoalKeeping Coach now for 7 1/2 years, in this time he has coached:
Pepe Reina
Brad Jones
Doni
Peter Gulácsi
Danny Ward
Ryan Fulton
Adam Bogdan
Loris Karius
Alex Manninger
Kamil Grabara
and now Alisson
Giving him the benefit of the doubt on Reina, Jones & Doni because he inherited them when he was made 1st Team GoalKeeping Coach even though he was around a further 2 years prior as Reserve Team GoalKeeping Coach.
The facts are Achterberg has had a hand in giving his judgement and Coaching 7 GoalKeepers before we got Alisson in. It's been his job to identify Keepers he can work with and improve, no matter what the price tag has been or where they came from. Not 1 of those Keepers has improved in his time with us!
If Alisson was to get injured now for any lengthy amount of time we'd be seriously fcuked because we haven't even got a backup that we could be confident in and that is down to Achterberg.
The last time we won a trophy was 2011/12 season coincidentally the season Achterberg became 1st Team GoalKeeping Coach - The League Cup. Since then a good chunk of our time has been spent on watching a long list of calamities more often than not made by The GoalKeepers Achterberg has been responsible for.
7 1/2 years just think about that? not one Keeper improved to the point we'd be confident of them as being even a backup Keeper?
Do you think anyone that list of keepers were or would’ve been good enough for us, Reina apart who was on the decline before your pal came in? Do you believe that Alisson will go the same way?
Last edited by wilkij1975; 13/12/18 01:39 PM.
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