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Joined: Aug 2011
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1st Team Squad
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OP
1st Team Squad
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 8,564 |
I am curious to see how people feel about where we are as a club now vs where we were when he arrived. I have been surprised by the gloomy attitude compared to last season especially.
Compared to last season, we have earned two more points than we did last year, and our goal difference is +8 better, but compared to last season when everyone seemed to trust Klopp blindly, there have been a lot of fans very critical of him.
The categories I would consider would be:
League Performance: I would have to say that we have had pretty consistent improvement each year so far. Although he has yet to match BR's best season, which is our best league campaign since the turn of the century at least (probably in the Premier League Era), he has been more consistent then Rodgers who finished 7th (61 Points), 2nd (84 Points) and 6th (62 Points) in his first 3 full seasons. The shared season should count for both of them in which we finished 8th (60 points).
Bar the superb 13-14 season, each season with Rodgers in charge left us between 60-62 points. Even taking that season into account, the average is 66.7 points.
Klopp has had the shared season in which he finished 8th (60 Points), and last season he finished 4th (76 Points), and halfway through this season we are 2 points and 8 goals ahead of last years tally at this stage, so assuming all holds the same, we should finish somewhere between 76-80 points range (usually enough to finish somewhere between 2nd-4th), which would be a minimum average of 70 points, max 72. For me, that's pretty quantifiable progress.
Rodgers had one season that was overall better, but Klopp's only full season wasn't far from it, and his average is definitely higher.
Cup Competition Performance: Rodgers was pretty poor here. The best he ever did was a semi-final against Aston Villa, which he lost.
12-13: FA cup knocked out 4th round by Odlham Athletic.
League cup Knocked out by Swansea City (the winners that year TBF)
13-14: FA Cup Knocked out by Arsenal 5th Round League Cup: Knocked out by United 5th round
14-15: FA Cup Semi-finals, lost to Villa League Cup Semi-finals, knocked out by Chelsea
Kopp has gotten some stick for his performance in the cups, but overall appears to have done slightly better or about the same.
15-16 FA Cup 4th round knocked out by West Ham, League Cup Runners up, lost to City on penalties.
16-17 FA cup 4th round (lost to Wolves) League Cup Semi-finals (lost to Saints)
This season he lost to Leicester City in the 4th round, and we are currently still in the FA cup.
Klopp has gotten to a final and a semi-final, while the best Rodgers could do was two semi-finals. Klopp edges this for me.
European Record: Probably Rodgers' biggest weakness and failure as a manager.
12-13 Lost to Zennit in the Europa League round of 32
13-14 No competiton
14-15 Failed to get out of UCL group stages in a group that contained Ludogrets and Basel, Lost to Besiktas on Pens in round of 32.
Under Rodgers we fell out of the top 50 Uefa Coefficient to a ranking as low as 54th. We were 19th when he took over. That is a 32 point swing in the negative. His only European victory of note was Udinese in the group stages of the EL.
Klopp does done much better so far.
15-16 He got us to the Europa league finals in his first season, knocking out United, Dortmund, and Vilarreal. We lost to Sevilla who have won the competition a record 3 times in a row.
16-17 No competition
17-18 We qualified for the Champions league knock out stages for the first time since 2009, and we are still in the competition. We are the top scorers in the competition so far, and we recorded our biggest ever home and away wins in European competition, and breaking Man United's record as the highest English goal scoring record in the UCL group stages.
Klopp has obviously outdone BR in Europe by some distance, and we've had a lot of progress so far here. We've climbed from 54th to 31st (a 24 point swing in the positive) and notched some notable wins against Dortmund, Manchester United, Hoffenheim, and Vilarreal. With our round of 16 draw against Porto, we could get to the quarters, or even the semi-finals realistically this year, and we could rise to the top 30 again.
Squad Quality: There are two parts to this, the first being transfer record, the second being man-management and player improvement.
Rodgers' Inherited squad-
GK: Reina, Jones,
Def: Johnson, Enrique, Kelly, Flanagan, Agger, Aurelio, Carragher, Robinson, Coates, Skrtel
Mid: Gerrard, Adam, Downing, Spearing, Lucas, Shelvy, Henderson, Suso
Forward: Bellamy, Rodriguez, Carroll, Suarez, Kuyt, Sterling
A little thin in the middle, and definitely ageing, but that isn't a bad squad. The spine of Suarez, Gerrard, Lucas, Reina, Carra, Agger/Skrtel is pretty solid, and they were coming off a season with the joint best defense in the league under Dalglish, and with two genuine world class stars in Suarez and Gerrard. Some duds in there (Adam, Carroll) and some sicknotes (Agger Aurelio), but not bad.
Klopp's Inherrited Squad
GK: Mignolet, Bogdan
Def: Clyne, Toure, Lovren, Sakho, Gomez, Flannagan, Randal, Illori, Smith, Moreno
Mid: Lallana, Henderson, Alberto, Coutinho, Can, Allen, Milner, Stewart, Teixeira,
Forward: Balotelli, Ings, Sturridge, Ibe, Ojo, Firmino, Origi
Oof. Some good players here, but no one at Gerrard or Suarez's stature. The defense is a mess, there are almost no goals, and the team is very green. Some young talent, and some potential, but most the better players in here are either sicknotes (Sturridge, Ings), struggled for consistency (Can, Lallana, Firmino, Coutinho), or had disciplinary issues (Sakho, Balotelli) before Klopp arrived. I would say Rodgers had a better foundation to work with. So how did they improve it?
Transfer Record:
Rodgers didn't fair so well here. Two big successes (Sturridge, Coutinho), and several big failures (Aspas, Balotelli, Allen, Borini, Sahin, Markovic, Benteke, Illori). Some other decentplayers, but they didn't really perform under him (Lallana, Firmino, Can), and a few good bargain stop gaps (Milner, Toure).
Notable outgoings/not properly replaced soon enough: Carragher, Agger, Gerrard, Kuyt, Suarez, Reina
Biggest purchases: Lallana 25M, Benteke 35M, Markovic 25M, Lovren 20M Sakho 18M
Klopp hasn't had nearly as much time, so it's difficult to evaluate, but his rate of success seems a bit higher:
Big successes: Mane and Salah. Definitely comparable to Sudge and Phil in terms of success so far. A few unremarkable bargain buys similar to Rodgers (Grujic, Solanke, Robertson). Jury is still very much out on them. A few bargains (Matip, Wjinaldum). Oxlade-Chamberlain is showing signs of promise, but jury is still out. Keita looks good, but hasn't kicked a ball in a red shirt yet.
Notable outgoings/not properly replaced: Sakho, Lucas, Benteke (reaching here) Can (possibly)
Player Improvement-
This is an area both Klopp and Rodgers were good at. This is their bread and butter.
Rodgers: Notable improvements:
Sterling: Rodgers took him from a skinny teenager with bags of pace and no footballing IQ to the most expensive English player ever. He already had talent, but Rodgers helped him a lot.
Henderson: He was a deer in headlights his first year, but Rodgers helped him use his strengths and got his best two seasons out of him (2013-14, 2014-15). If anyone had told me he would be our captain in 11-12 when he signed, and I would have laughed. Still divides opinion, but much better than his first season.
Gerrard: He had something of a Renaissance in 2013-14, which was his best season since 2009 in terms of goals and assists. He reinvented his game. The unfortunate slip shouldn't cloud over that.
Sturridge: For one season he was the second deadliest striker in the country. Hasn't happened under any other manager.
Coutinho: Was just a young hopeful at Inter.
Suarez: Before Rodgers, he was the most frustrating player to watch. He had flashes of brilliance, but he ran all over the place too much, and he missed sitters and had huge behavior issues. Rodgers turned him into the best player in the league and arguably the best striker on earth at the time. His finishing, his passing, and his attitude all got much better.
Honorable mentions: Downing, Flannagan,
Regressions/Failures:
Johnson was one of our better players under Kenny, but Rodgers managed him very poorly. His defensive weaknesses got worse, and he stopped doing well going forward.
Enrique: See above, but worse.
Reina: Was one of our most successful goalkeepers ever, became crap in a year, was shipped out, and has done well at Napoli since.
Balotelli: don't get me started
Klopp:
Biggest successes:
Lallana: we all thought he was a dud and on his way out, but Klopp turned him into a cult hero and fan favorite. Was seen as light weight with no end product, now seen as our most creative midfielder bar Coutinho, and one of our best pressers.
Coutinho: Was good, but inconsistent under BR. Creative, but never scored more than 4-5 goals. Had his two best seasons under Klopp, and he has become a complete attacking midfielder and a real goal threat.
Sakho: Although they fell out later, he was awesome Klopp's first year. Key in the Europa league run.
Firmino: Probably my favorite player at the club. So misused under BR, now he's our number 9, and has 13 goals in this half of the season so far.
Can: Total enigma under BR, but a very important midfielder for Klopp. Will be sad to see him go.
Moreno: Terrible under BR, improved massively this season.
Honorable mentions: Allen, Origi
Failures: Benteke, Sakho (sort of)
Winner (probably a tie for me, but more regression under Rodgers)
Global Perception/Handling the Media
Rodgers talked a big game, but it was cringey at times. Klopp had us spell-bound for the first two years, and even when he's off his game, he tends to deflect attention from the players.
Klopp wins easily here.
Overall, I have been frustrated at times, because I feel like we have been on the edge of something great for a while now, but we are in a much better place than we were two years ago before Klopp arrived. We're relevant again, and I'm excited to see where this season goes. Is it good enough for us? Probably not where SHOULD be yet, but a sight better than where we were.
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,387
Under 23 Player
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Under 23 Player
Joined: Jul 2010
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Good post !! Could do with it pinning for reference...
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Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 5,936
1st Team Squad
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1st Team Squad
Joined: Dec 2015
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Klopp has had more than enough time to make this his team. He came to us probably earlier than anticipated in October 2015.
He's had:
January 2016 transfer window
Summer 2016 transfer window
January 2017 transfer window
Summer 2017 transfer window
The fact he was a Defender in his playing career, you'd think he would have had a better understanding in setting up a team to defend properly. Unfortunately we've seen the exact opposite to our expectations, he'd rather play with 11 attacking players, no defenders, no goalkeeper and no out and out striker.
It's great as a fan to watch when everything clicks into place because we can steamroller teams, BUT it's frustrating to watch when he can't get the defence to do the basics right!
Klopp is also too belligerent for his own good and can't see the woods for the trees. He is blinkered to the fact that after 50 to 60 mins when we are blatantly going down a wrong alley in our play. He'll wait far too long to make any changes, most of the time with 10 mins to go. The last transfer window he showed just how belligerent he is by not accepting the fact we were not getting VVD or Keita immediately and that there are players out there that are in fact better than what we have that could have done a job for us and thus strengthening the squad. His treatment of Robertson has been baffling to say the least and him picking Lovren time and time again after he continually f.cuks up, when everybody knows Lovren's head is up his a..rse at the moment with personal problems. Lovren should have been given time off to sort his life and head out and come back without the weight of the world on his shoulders.
Klopp needs to be pushing the team for silverware now but we are off that expectation probably for this season at least.
If the team fails to cement it's place once again in next season's CL, then Klopp should be held accountable!
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 8,564
1st Team Squad
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OP
1st Team Squad
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 8,564 |
Klopp has had more than enough time to make this his team. He came to us probably earlier than anticipated in October 2015.
He's had:
January 2016 transfer window
Summer 2016 transfer window
January 2017 transfer window
Summer 2017 transfer window
The fact he was a Defender in his playing career, you'd think he would have had a better understanding in setting up a team to defend properly. Unfortunately we've seen the exact opposite to our expectations, he'd rather play with 11 attacking players, no defenders, no goalkeeper and no out and out striker.
It's great as a fan to watch when everything clicks into place because we can steamroller teams, BUT it's frustrating to watch when he can't get the defence to do the basics right!
Klopp is also too belligerent for his own good and can't see the woods for the trees. He is blinkered to the fact that after 50 to 60 mins when we are blatantly going down a wrong alley in our play. He'll wait far too long to make any changes, most of the time with 10 mins to go. The last transfer window he showed just how belligerent he is by not accepting the fact we were not getting VVD or Keita immediately and that there are players out there that are in fact better than what we have that could have done a job for us and thus strengthening the squad. His treatment of Robertson has been baffling to say the least and him picking Lovren time and time again after he continually f.cuks up, when everybody knows Lovren's head is up his a..rse at the moment with personal problems. Lovren should have been given time off to sort his life and head out and come back without the weight of the world on his shoulders.
Klopp needs to be pushing the team for silverware now but we are off that expectation probably for this season at least.
If the team fails to cement it's place once again in next season's CL, then Klopp should be held accountable! We have lots of threads about the lack of CBs, and I've been as vocal as anyone about it. But what the thread is about whether or not we've improved, and in what ways we have. That one glaring weakness aside, we have a better team than we did when he arrived. ------Mignolet Gomez Lovren Matip Moreno/Robertson -----Wjinaldum Can -----Phil Salah---Firmino--Mane Subs: Karius, Klavan, Trent, Clyne, Milner, Ox, Lallana Sturridge, Henderson That team is a sight better than --------Mignolet Clyne Lovren Skrtel Gomez ------Henderson Milner ---Phil Firmino----Lallana --------Benteke Subs: Origi, Sturridge, Bogdan, Can, Allen, Moreno, Enrique, Illori Especially considering the way most of those players were playing before Klopp arrived. In 2014-15, our top scorer was Gerrard with 13 in all comps (most of which were pens), and Sterling was the only other player in double figures. This year, Firmino has already matched that, Salah has hit 20, and Phil has hit 10. Our front 4 alone has 50 goals between them. We were 54th in Europe, getting knocked out of the EL by the likes of Beskitas. Now we're in the last 16 of the CL, and we'll be at least the top 30 this year. We were consistently a midtable side, now we're in the CL and we've spent most of the year in top 4, and we still are there now, halfway through the season. He's got us to two finals, and we've got good draws in the two cups we are still in. How is this not better?
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 8,564
1st Team Squad
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OP
1st Team Squad
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 8,564 |
Ok, great. We have a million threads about that too. But have we improved or not?
If so, explain.
If not, explain.
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Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 6,054
1st Team Squad
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1st Team Squad
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 6,054 |
Klopp has rebuilt the team (Still is), he took over a team that had lost it's best players in Suarez, Gerrard, Sterling, Reina & Carragher over a few years, that's the heart of the team.
We were struggling under Rodgers and had lost our way, we squandered most of the money we received from those players buying players like Markovic & Balotelli etc
So I think he has got us back to near where we were in 2013-2014, we are playing exciting football, defence is still a problem, you still cannot count on us 100%.
We are also less reliant on individuals, like we were over reliant on Suarez & Gerrard, before that Torres & Gerrard, now we can miss a top player like Mane and still play well/win games, so the squad is stronger and has more resilience, we have quality ready to come in the team.
It's still a work in progress, if FSG back Klopp in the transfer market, I believe we will continue to improve, problem is we are now trying to compete with Man City, who could dominate for the next 10 years with the team they already have and the players they can afford to bring in.
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 462
Under 16 Player
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Under 16 Player
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 462 |
Oaps! we earned two more points comparing with last year?
I wonder what TiredReds will say here? He keep telling me that Klopp didnt sign a CB cost us 6 points and if his rotation policy works and then we can get more points comparing with last year?
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 462
Under 16 Player
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Under 16 Player
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 462 |
Klopp has rebuilt the team (Still is), he took over a team that had lost it's best players in Suarez, Gerrard, Sterling, Reina & Carragher over a few years, that's the heart of the team.
We were struggling under Rodgers and had lost our way, we squandered most of the money we received from those players buying players like Markovic & Balotelli etc
So I think he has got us back to near where we were in 2013-2014, we are playing exciting football, defence is still a problem, you still cannot count on us 100%.
We are also less reliant on individuals, like we were over reliant on Suarez & Gerrard, before that Torres & Gerrard, now we can miss a top player like Mane and still play well/win games, so the squad is stronger and has more resilience, we have quality ready to come in the team.
It's still a work in progress, if FSG back Klopp in the transfer market, I believe we will continue to improve, problem is we are now trying to compete with Man City, who could dominate for the next 10 years with the team they already have and the players they can afford to bring in.
yes, that's why I support Klopp. And he can identify our weakness well too. He knew we are lack of squad depth, midfield is too soft for tackling and our defense is not perfect. He tried to fix the above problems last summer although it was a bit hard as the market had suddenly gone crazy. For the squad depth, he bought Ox/Salah. So that we can have at least 1 pacey winger being rest each game. And Ox can also operate as a dynamic midfielder. That's why our options for the teams are much better than last year. For the midfield issues, he identified Keita as the target. He is definitely our missing puzzle in the midfield. he is a good tackler and dribbler. The possesses the quality which we cant see in our current MC. Unluckily, RB Lepzig standed quite firm here and what we can do is get him last year. For the defence issue, we have Robertson and VVD. Unluckily, the tapping up issues made us failed to land VVD. However, Klopp identified the issues and you knew that he is going to fix it. I believe in Klopp's view, it is a long-term project and he sees us in the middle of the project. That's why if he could identify the best solutions, he wont rush to the alternatives easily. He would wait and get the best solutions if possible. However, for some of our fans, they want the project to be finished now. They dont want to wait or be patient, even though most of them knew that the team was shyte when Klopp arrived and promised they will give time for Klopp to rebuild the squad.
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 8,564
1st Team Squad
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OP
1st Team Squad
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 8,564 |
Ok, great. We have a million threads about that too. But have we improved or not?
If so, explain.
If not, explain. End of the day it’s self explanatory we concede way to many goals for a top five team So have we improved that no not really if we improved that then yes we have improved is it all the defence fault no not really midfield is not good enough as well it’s hit and miss Also Klopp is to blame for not getting the defence sorted in four windows By the way there’s lot of threads on have we improved too but there that’s my opinion No, it's not self explanatory. The question is not "Is it good enough," the question is "is it improved?" Is it better? I think it has, and I have provided many statistics and arguements to support this point. What do you think about it. Do we concede too many for a top 5 team, as you say? I would say that's inacurate because we finished 4th last year. So we are a top five team, in facct a top 4 team. Well, we've conceded the same as Arsenal and only 2 more than Spurs, but our GD is better than both of theirs. So our defense hasn't really done much worse than theirs, if any worse at all. Compared to this stage last season, we are 2 points above where we were, with two goals conceded fewer than this stage last year. Our Goal difference is also better than it was last year. The defense isn't fixed, but it is better. Fullback is no longer a weakness. We just lack a centre back. It is certainly better than when Rodgers was in charge. At least we have one competent centre back now instead of none, and 4 decent fullbacks instead of one. Our midfield isn't where it needs to be, but it is better than when it was when he took over, when at times we had to play a midfield 3 of Allen, Lallana, and Lucas (especially beccause Allen and Lallana were sh*t under BR). Wjinaldum and Can aren't perfecct, but they are better. Oxlade-Chamberlain isn't the finished article, but he is a better addition than say Joe Allen or Luis Alberto. Lallana, Milner and Can all improved under Klopp. Squad depth, especially in the attacking positions and midefield, has proved thus far this season to be more important than strengthening the defense. Just look at Spurs so far this season.
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 22,926
Liverpool Legend
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Liverpool Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 22,926 |
I am curious to see how people feel about where we are as a club now vs where we were when he arrived. I have been surprised by the gloomy attitude compared to last season especially.
Compared to last season, we have earned two more points than we did last year, and our goal difference is +8 better, but compared to last season when everyone seemed to trust Klopp blindly, there have been a lot of fans very critical of him.
The categories I would consider would be:
League Performance: I would have to say that we have had pretty consistent improvement each year so far. Although he has yet to match BR's best season, which is our best league campaign since the turn of the century at least (probably in the Premier League Era), he has been more consistent then Rodgers who finished 7th (61 Points), 2nd (84 Points) and 6th (62 Points) in his first 3 full seasons. The shared season should count for both of them in which we finished 8th (60 points).
Bar the superb 13-14 season, each season with Rodgers in charge left us between 60-62 points. Even taking that season into account, the average is 66.7 points.
Klopp has had the shared season in which he finished 8th (60 Points), and last season he finished 4th (76 Points), and halfway through this season we are 2 points and 8 goals ahead of last years tally at this stage, so assuming all holds the same, we should finish somewhere between 76-80 points range (usually enough to finish somewhere between 2nd-4th), which would be a minimum average of 70 points, max 72. For me, that's pretty quantifiable progress.
Rodgers had one season that was overall better, but Klopp's only full season wasn't far from it, and his average is definitely higher.
Cup Competition Performance: Rodgers was pretty poor here. The best he ever did was a semi-final against Aston Villa, which he lost.
12-13: FA cup knocked out 4th round by Odlham Athletic.
League cup Knocked out by Swansea City (the winners that year TBF)
13-14: FA Cup Knocked out by Arsenal 5th Round League Cup: Knocked out by United 5th round
14-15: FA Cup Semi-finals, lost to Villa League Cup Semi-finals, knocked out by Chelsea
Kopp has gotten some stick for his performance in the cups, but overall appears to have done slightly better or about the same.
15-16 FA Cup 4th round knocked out by West Ham, League Cup Runners up, lost to City on penalties.
16-17 FA cup 4th round (lost to Wolves) League Cup Semi-finals (lost to Saints)
This season he lost to Leicester City in the 4th round, and we are currently still in the FA cup.
Klopp has gotten to a final and a semi-final, while the best Rodgers could do was two semi-finals. Klopp edges this for me.
European Record: Probably Rodgers' biggest weakness and failure as a manager.
12-13 Lost to Zennit in the Europa League round of 32
13-14 No competiton
14-15 Failed to get out of UCL group stages in a group that contained Ludogrets and Basel, Lost to Besiktas on Pens in round of 32.
Under Rodgers we fell out of the top 50 Uefa Coefficient to a ranking as low as 54th. We were 19th when he took over. That is a 32 point swing in the negative. His only European victory of note was Udinese in the group stages of the EL.
Klopp does done much better so far.
15-16 He got us to the Europa league finals in his first season, knocking out United, Dortmund, and Vilarreal. We lost to Sevilla who have won the competition a record 3 times in a row.
16-17 No competition
17-18 We qualified for the Champions league knock out stages for the first time since 2009, and we are still in the competition. We are the top scorers in the competition so far, and we recorded our biggest ever home and away wins in European competition, and breaking Man United's record as the highest English goal scoring record in the UCL group stages.
Klopp has obviously outdone BR in Europe by some distance, and we've had a lot of progress so far here. We've climbed from 54th to 31st (a 24 point swing in the positive) and notched some notable wins against Dortmund, Manchester United, Hoffenheim, and Vilarreal. With our round of 16 draw against Porto, we could get to the quarters, or even the semi-finals realistically this year, and we could rise to the top 30 again.
Squad Quality: There are two parts to this, the first being transfer record, the second being man-management and player improvement.
Rodgers' Inherited squad-
GK: Reina, Jones,
Def: Johnson, Enrique, Kelly, Flanagan, Agger, Aurelio, Carragher, Robinson, Coates, Skrtel
Mid: Gerrard, Adam, Downing, Spearing, Lucas, Shelvy, Henderson, Suso
Forward: Bellamy, Rodriguez, Carroll, Suarez, Kuyt, Sterling
A little thin in the middle, and definitely ageing, but that isn't a bad squad. The spine of Suarez, Gerrard, Lucas, Reina, Carra, Agger/Skrtel is pretty solid, and they were coming off a season with the joint best defense in the league under Dalglish, and with two genuine world class stars in Suarez and Gerrard. Some duds in there (Adam, Carroll) and some sicknotes (Agger Aurelio), but not bad.
Klopp's Inherrited Squad
GK: Mignolet, Bogdan
Def: Clyne, Toure, Lovren, Sakho, Gomez, Flannagan, Randal, Illori, Smith, Moreno
Mid: Lallana, Henderson, Alberto, Coutinho, Can, Allen, Milner, Stewart, Teixeira,
Forward: Balotelli, Ings, Sturridge, Ibe, Ojo, Firmino, Origi
Oof. Some good players here, but no one at Gerrard or Suarez's stature. The defense is a mess, there are almost no goals, and the team is very green. Some young talent, and some potential, but most the better players in here are either sicknotes (Sturridge, Ings), struggled for consistency (Can, Lallana, Firmino, Coutinho), or had disciplinary issues (Sakho, Balotelli) before Klopp arrived. I would say Rodgers had a better foundation to work with. So how did they improve it?
Transfer Record:
Rodgers didn't fair so well here. Two big successes (Sturridge, Coutinho), and several big failures (Aspas, Balotelli, Allen, Borini, Sahin, Markovic, Benteke, Illori). Some other decentplayers, but they didn't really perform under him (Lallana, Firmino, Can), and a few good bargain stop gaps (Milner, Toure).
Notable outgoings/not properly replaced soon enough: Carragher, Agger, Gerrard, Kuyt, Suarez, Reina
Biggest purchases: Lallana 25M, Benteke 35M, Markovic 25M, Lovren 20M Sakho 18M
Klopp hasn't had nearly as much time, so it's difficult to evaluate, but his rate of success seems a bit higher:
Big successes: Mane and Salah. Definitely comparable to Sudge and Phil in terms of success so far. A few unremarkable bargain buys similar to Rodgers (Grujic, Solanke, Robertson). Jury is still very much out on them. A few bargains (Matip, Wjinaldum). Oxlade-Chamberlain is showing signs of promise, but jury is still out. Keita looks good, but hasn't kicked a ball in a red shirt yet.
Notable outgoings/not properly replaced: Sakho, Lucas, Benteke (reaching here) Can (possibly)
Player Improvement-
This is an area both Klopp and Rodgers were good at. This is their bread and butter.
Rodgers: Notable improvements:
Sterling: Rodgers took him from a skinny teenager with bags of pace and no footballing IQ to the most expensive English player ever. He already had talent, but Rodgers helped him a lot.
Henderson: He was a deer in headlights his first year, but Rodgers helped him use his strengths and got his best two seasons out of him (2013-14, 2014-15). If anyone had told me he would be our captain in 11-12 when he signed, and I would have laughed. Still divides opinion, but much better than his first season.
Gerrard: He had something of a Renaissance in 2013-14, which was his best season since 2009 in terms of goals and assists. He reinvented his game. The unfortunate slip shouldn't cloud over that.
Sturridge: For one season he was the second deadliest striker in the country. Hasn't happened under any other manager.
Coutinho: Was just a young hopeful at Inter.
Suarez: Before Rodgers, he was the most frustrating player to watch. He had flashes of brilliance, but he ran all over the place too much, and he missed sitters and had huge behavior issues. Rodgers turned him into the best player in the league and arguably the best striker on earth at the time. His finishing, his passing, and his attitude all got much better.
Honorable mentions: Downing, Flannagan,
Regressions/Failures:
Johnson was one of our better players under Kenny, but Rodgers managed him very poorly. His defensive weaknesses got worse, and he stopped doing well going forward.
Enrique: See above, but worse.
Reina: Was one of our most successful goalkeepers ever, became crap in a year, was shipped out, and has done well at Napoli since.
Balotelli: don't get me started
Klopp:
Biggest successes:
Lallana: we all thought he was a dud and on his way out, but Klopp turned him into a cult hero and fan favorite. Was seen as light weight with no end product, now seen as our most creative midfielder bar Coutinho, and one of our best pressers.
Coutinho: Was good, but inconsistent under BR. Creative, but never scored more than 4-5 goals. Had his two best seasons under Klopp, and he has become a complete attacking midfielder and a real goal threat.
Sakho: Although they fell out later, he was awesome Klopp's first year. Key in the Europa league run.
Firmino: Probably my favorite player at the club. So misused under BR, now he's our number 9, and has 13 goals in this half of the season so far.
Can: Total enigma under BR, but a very important midfielder for Klopp. Will be sad to see him go.
Moreno: Terrible under BR, improved massively this season.
Honorable mentions: Allen, Origi
Failures: Benteke, Sakho (sort of)
Winner (probably a tie for me, but more regression under Rodgers)
Global Perception/Handling the Media
Rodgers talked a big game, but it was cringey at times. Klopp had us spell-bound for the first two years, and even when he's off his game, he tends to deflect attention from the players.
Klopp wins easily here.
Overall, I have been frustrated at times, because I feel like we have been on the edge of something great for a while now, but we are in a much better place than we were two years ago before Klopp arrived. We're relevant again, and I'm excited to see where this season goes. Is it good enough for us? Probably not where SHOULD be yet, but a sight better than where we were.
I am not sure what you are comparing with last season, but if I go by the table, last season after 18 games we were 2nd in the league with 40 points and a goal difference of 24 compared to the current 34 points and goal difference of 18 putting us 4th in the league. Therefore, it's no progress in the EPL compared to last season. You might say that this season we are in the CL, but then we were also still in the league cup last season which I know is not comparable. That said, if we do not finish in the top 4 this season it will be a failure compared to last year and we have reinforced to be able to manage both competitions. Therefore, I wouldn't say that so far at least we are better positioned than last season though the squad has improved as we haven't lost any major players but have added one monster and a better LB. I would say that this is because we have improved our attack but regressed defensively compared to last season and overall have regressed given the points tally. The good news is that there is the possibility of a step change if we can get the defence right. I however think that we have improved compared to Rodgers' last season both in squad quality and position, there is no doubt that Klopp has done a good job replacing Suarez and Gerrard. There is no doubt that Klopp is better than Rodgers. We are still work in progress though I don't understand why it's taking so long to sort our our defence, this should be a basic thing. Sam came in and sorted out Everton's defence over a couple of games without even bringing new players, I even wonder if Klopp can do it. Yes it can be Lovren, but when you watch our games we are not well organised neither.
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