KopTalk.com Forums Football Liverpool FC Forum World Class

I love the F.A Cup but sadly it's not classed as a major no more if it was would clubs be resting players in it. The treble was a very nice treble to win especially the Cardiff Final against Arsenal however none of those competitions were majors and couldn't compare to United treble a few seasons earlier or are people saying it's the same. I see the title world class as a level and not a performance that's why this idea people have of a player being world class because they got into a world 11 for me doesn't add up, what if a player has a good season and gets in, what if Jamie Vardy wins the League and gets up front alongside Suarez, is he world class then ahead of say I dunno Neymar, Lewandowski or Aguero because according to the world 11 he must be.
If you read my postings about success I did say there was no perfect way to define world class but judging it on what you win and achieve in the game is probably the most accurate indicator if you have to use one. I did say you not only have to win a major but also have a direct input or part in the actual success, think Zidane World Cup final 98, Messi European cup win against United in Rome or even Dalglish Bruge 78, other players have the same winners medals but just appeared bit like Traore in Istanbul or at United Phil Neville with about 6 League winners medals more than Souness or Ray Kennedy for us so you see it's about impacting the winning result to.
The last point about players liking or rating a player doesn't carry much weight either Houllier called Cheyroux the new Zidane and Salif DIao the new Veira and the most talked about player all the managers raved about was Joe Cole at West Ham so you see that's hardly a ringing endorsement of World class. I have tried to answer most of your questions hope it helps you understand, enjoyed the read tho...

Like Gerrard in Istanbul? He won a major and had a significant impact on the fight back.

As far as opinions of players and coaches go, the comparison you're making is a straw man fallacy. Those are one off instances. I'm talking about an overall consensus in the sporting world that consistently named Gerrard in the UEFA team of the year, him winning PFA player of the year several times, premier league player of the year, being a runner up in the Ballon D'or award, and lauded by nearly every great manager and player in the sport as one of the very best midfielders of the premier league era. The debate about Gerrard, Lampard, and Scholes goes on forever, but almost everyone agrees that it's down to those 3, and Gerrard is usually towards the front of that list.


He consistently put up big numbers as far as goals and assists per season, he controlled and changed matches, he came up big in cup finals and semi-finals, scoring and rallying the team when he needed to. He made average players look good, good players like Garcia or Coutinho look better, and class players like Alonso, Torres, and Suarez on another level.

That's not the same as Houllier talking up a new signing, or a few managers talking about Cole, who never put up those kinds of numbers or won the same accolades. Are you seriously going to compare Joe Cole to Steven Gerrard?

As far as our treble goes, I never said it was any more or less impressive than United's, but it's still and impressive feat that most clubs would kill for. The Uefa cup alone is an impressive feat, one that huge clubs like Chelsea, City, or Arsenal have never achieved, despite their world class squads.

As for the trophies vs class bit, trophies are an indicator, sure but you are wrong saying they are the best indicator. They are not the best indicator because there are too many other factors outside the player's control: the team's overall quality, injuries, manager's decisions, referee's decisions, plain bad luck. Also, the sample size is too small to get an accurate bead on the player's ability. It's much more accurate to look at their whole career: the numbers they put up, the standard of play they maintained throughout their career.

Le Tissier and Shearer were world class players in teams that weren't world class, but their ability still shone through and they made a mark on the league that will be remembered forever, regardless of the fact that Newcastle or Southampton didn't win league titles while they were there. In the same way, players like Anderson or Malouda may have more medals than these tow, but did they have their class or ability? Obviously not.

ok so you don't want to go with what trophies you win as the best of a bad bunch of indicators to maybe best describe the world class category, what do you suggest better, world 11 that Jamie Vardy could get into over a season or maybe the golden boot one that Kevin Phillips won, or the because so and so said so line, what you think is the best.

I mentioned countless times before about the game being defined be levels, I was told Steve Bull can't be compared to Ian Rush because Rushie scored all his goals at a much higher level which is of corpse true so why doesn't that same logic apply to Owen and Suarez who never played at the top level for Liverpool in achieving Champions League success which ofcorse we all agree is probably the highest level you can play in Club football. I don't understand how a player can only achieve greatness just once like Gerrard and Shearer be judged on the same level as Zidane or Van Basten when you look at there carriers. Like I keep saying the world class level is bandied about far too easily these days and for me it's a level not a performance, people say Suarez was world class after a fantastic season but won't say Bale was in his last season at Spurs when they both ended up with exactly the same....nothing....

So how was Suarez playing at the world class level at Liverpool if he wasn't playing Champions League...

So you believe in levels but don't believe players can be elevated to their own world class level? Again, redordead I think spangles is fixated on big occasions being the only test where you can prove you are world class which is a pity. That's probably why he brought up Steve Bull or whoever he was in the first place, to ask if he was world class because he stood out domestically. He's impossible to debate with because he's too narrow minded, little bit like me when it comes to tactics.

sometimed the best examples are the most extreme ones that get a point over and that's where Steve Bull came in. There is no way you can put him on the same level footing as Rushie because he wasn't playing at the highest level to be judged wether or not he could step up, he might of but might not of there is a question mark and world class has no question mark because they have already achieved it. Suarez was a fantastic player for us at Prenoetdhip level, he flopped in the two biggest games he played in it and there were two no shows in the two cup finals too so there were question marks at the time of if he could produce in the main games. He never played at the champions league level so we don't know if he could make that step up, he has done since at Barcelona but the point I make is at Liverpool he never proved he could do therefore couldn't be regarded ad a world class level player...

You can be a world class player regardless of where you play and in what competitions. Bale turned into one at Spurs as did Suarez with us. These players will always go onto better things as they have.