KopTalk.com Forums Football Liverpool FC Forum World Class

uou make some decent enough points however I have to pick holes in a few if you don't mind, Kaka and Shevchenko had already reached and established there world class status well before Istanbul, for some when we played them they were on the way down, the other point I would like to make I agree with the Champions League being the pinnacle but unfortunately in football we would both lose that one because winning the World Cup is the greatest honour and level in football, that's why Bobby Moore will always be regarded as the best and greatest captain in British football ahead of Souness and Alan Handen who won about 4 times as many honours. The point I made about the Everton players was an example that the love of a player can somewhat cloud the players ability in that they are seen to be better than what they actually are this is where Fowler as good as good as he was Rise and Garcia are not at world level...

Umm, no. Kaka won player of the tournament that year, and in the next few years he won a ballon as well as a champions league title with Milan in 2007, along with several other league titles and cups. He was not on the way down at all.

Shevchenko had won a league title the previous year, and a champions league two years prior, and he won the ballon d'or that year as well. He was at the peak of his powers in 2004-5.

Pirlo kept winning trophies for years after that, with Milan, Juventus, and the Italian National Team. Our players beat them at the peak of their powers and while they had arguably their best ever manager.

If the champions league is the pinnacle, as you have agreed, then Gerrard, Alonso, and Hyypia reached it. Ergo, world class.

so which parts of my post didn't you understand, I did say Kaka and Shevchenko had already established themselves as world class before meeting us in the final, I did say some would say they were on the way down and had reached there pinnacle earlier that doesn't mean they weren't still successful, Bryan Robson win his only league title in his last season and ad for awards didn't Giggsy win player of the year when he was nearly 40. The other thing I said was in nearly all football eyes winning the World Cup is the biggest and most prestigious honour in football, my own opinion is it's the champions league, the lady point I would like to add is what I have stated previously until I am blue in the face its a lot easier to win s trophy once defending it is the hard part, Gerrard Careaghet and Big Sami win one solitary major honour so how on earth can you put them on the same world class footing as players who have won five or 6 majors....

This sentence suggests that they were on their way down. It sounds like to me that you're caught in a corner, but if that's not what you meant, fair play. Punctuate your sentences better, and you won't be so easily misunderstood.

As for Hyypia and Gerrard on winning one major honor: UEFA cup, CL, multiple FA Cups and league cups. Hardly one major honor that.

With the world cup discussion, yes it's the biggest honor in world football, but lack of a world cup doesn't disqualify players from being world class (mind you, Torres and Alonso are World Cup Winners). That trophy has eluded Ronaldo and Messi, undoubtably the two best players of their generation, possibly of all time. Are they not world class?

The problem with international trophies is that a player can't chose what country he was born in, so even some of the greatest players never achieve that success because they are from a country that won't win. Ibrahimavic, Shevchenko, Etoo, Best, Giggs, Rush, and many others fall into this category.

listen as much as I line the domestic cups they are not seen around the world as major trophies so yes Gerrard and Big Sami both win one major. I know all about the international thing about players not being able to choose countries and that's why I told you that when players can't manage it at Intenational level they can more than make up for it by winning a load of other majors which is what Messi, Rush, Souness, Dalglish and Figo did. Hope that clears things up a bit for u, intetesting post tho....

Are you talking about world class players or world class team? There is a difference you know, even if it is too complicated for you. If you get selected in the FIFA team of the year it means you are world class even if you haven't won any trophies.

For one thing, the UEFA cup is not a domestic cup. Also, the FA Cup is the oldest trophy in football. You see them as lesser, and fine, but I disagree that the world sees them as such. Look at Owen winning the Ballon D'or for example. You say he wasn't world class, but a panel of experts, coaches, and players from around the world determined that he was, because of the role he played in winning that treble.

A treble, is a feat only managed by a handful of teams in history. You can't pretend that that isn't a major achievement for any player. Sami, Owen, Fowler, and Gerrard are in special company for that.

Also, you still are committing a logical fallacy, seeing class and success as synonymous. They are related, but not the same thing. Class is talent and ability. Quality as a player. Trophies can be indicators, but they aren't the same thing. Look at Anderson at United. He's got a cabinet full of trophies, but would you say he's as good as Gerrard was?

Gerrard is one of our longest serving Captains, and he won everything there is to win at a club level, bar a league title. Just because that one trophy escaped him, especially during a period in which our resources were far outweighed by the likes of Chelsea, United, City, Etc., that doesn't mean that he wasn't word class.

Great players like Kaka, Zidane, Alonso Suarez, Pirlo have all spoken of him as one of the greatest midfielders they've ever seen. Zidane put him in his alltime UEFA 11, and he owed Gerrard nothing. He just recognized his ability.

Great managers have all said the same, from Wenger to Mourinho.

I love the F.A Cup but sadly it's not classed as a major no more if it was would clubs be resting players in it. The treble was a very nice treble to win especially the Cardiff Final against Arsenal however none of those competitions were majors and couldn't compare to United treble a few seasons earlier or are people saying it's the same. I see the title world class as a level and not a performance that's why this idea people have of a player being world class because they got into a world 11 for me doesn't add up, what if a player has a good season and gets in, what if Jamie Vardy wins the League and gets up front alongside Suarez, is he world class then ahead of say I dunno Neymar, Lewandowski or Aguero because according to the world 11 he must be.
If you read my postings about success I did say there was no perfect way to define world class but judging it on what you win and achieve in the game is probably the most accurate indicator if you have to use one. I did say you not only have to win a major but also have a direct input or part in the actual success, think Zidane World Cup final 98, Messi European cup win against United in Rome or even Dalglish Bruge 78, other players have the same winners medals but just appeared bit like Traore in Istanbul or at United Phil Neville with about 6 League winners medals more than Souness or Ray Kennedy for us so you see it's about impacting the winning result to.
The last point about players liking or rating a player doesn't carry much weight either Houllier called Cheyroux the new Zidane and Salif DIao the new Veira and the most talked about player all the managers raved about was Joe Cole at West Ham so you see that's hardly a ringing endorsement of World class. I have tried to answer most of your questions hope it helps you understand, enjoyed the read tho...

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