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So how big is your second tier of prem teams then - can't be just 1 team surely??? The top three are pretty obvious even with Utd having a bit of a blip, but given their money and success they are still realistically up there with Chelsea & City. The teams that usually fight for the league.

Arsenal on the other hand, would in my opinion be at the top end of a second cluster of clubs including ourselves and Spurs. Teams that generally challenge for fourth and not much more. There's always another team that joins this group each season but never really last - Newcastle, nEverton, Southampton ect.

The rest arrange themselves on a season by season basis - just the way I see it

I'm with you Duncan. Arsenal are a funny team that should be challenging most years with what they have. Yet they seem content to just get 4th and clear the ECL group stage. The fact they are where they are this season, despite their buying top class players (??), says it all to me and are in that group of second tier teams with us.

I actually agree with bigredkop as far as the statement that we are not in the same bracket as Arsenal. We are BETTER, just look at the trophy cabinet over the last 15 years..the trophies don lie.

And that's why us Liverpool fans get a bad rep. You're living in the past. If this is a conversation about historically who is the bigger club in England then sure Liverpool wipe the floor with Arsenal. If we want to be realistic and look at how the clubs are moving forward.

Arsenal top for every year for the last 5 years. FA cup winners > league cup winners. our TOP target chose them over us because he considers them in a higher tier due to Champions league football. The trophies don't lie? If you want to play around in your memory ninja then be my guest but it serves as little help for Liverpool currently. The world over considers Arsenal as a higher tier club than Liverpool. That's why Ozil and Sanchez chose them. Now THAT doesn't lie.



Well if you are pitching them at the top of some second cluster of clubs then there is very little between our opinions. It's clearly just how we rate Champions league football. For me personally, I would (as do players like Sanchez seemingly) consider regular Champions league football to be something that sets a club significantly apart from teams that don't get it. So for me that separates a tier. But if your partition is between competing for the title and not competing for the title but has had Champions league football in the past however many years fair enough. But the big players around the world don't seem to share that view unfortunately. I wish they did, where would be with sanchez this season? Likely not so desparate for Sturridge back as like you say Arsenal haven't been that great.

Arsenal stands apart from the three big boys, not only the fact that they rarely win anything or challenge for the title, but for the fact that they have in recently history been a feeder club to all & sundry. It's almost embarrassing the amount of players they've lost over the years who go in search of trophies and money. The mass exodus to Man City was exceptional, Barca have had more than their share of Arsenal greats also - not to mention Van Persie going to Utd....
We've lost one or two players over the years as any club has, but the constant revolving door at Arsenal is something else.

Arsenal rarely finish higher than 4th, and the reason I connect them to a lower group of teams is because they are usually fighting to beat others to the 4th place spot, as opposed to being in a title run and falling short.

Sanchez chose the Gunners ahead of us and his reasoning was that he wanted to live in London. As we had just finished 2nd in the league and were also in the champions league, you have to take his word for it no matter what your opinion is, unless he states otherwise.

Being realistic about our status is not the same as accepting our status. I'm sure you can see from my posts how realistic I am regarding our current status, some on here would probably say I'm even negative regarding my view of our status. What I want is a rejection of our current status in favour of signing decent quality players in order to pick ourselves up and get back in the race for top honours. We won't do that by meekly accepting 2nd or 3rd rate status. Imo every fan should be demanding the signing of quality over quantity, else we'll remain 2nd or 3rd rate. And not be defending or making excuses for this small minded, penny making, moneyball policy of signing little but prospects.

Sanchez and Arsene Wenger have both stated he chose Arsenal because of regular Champions league football. So yes you should take his and his manager's word for it I agree. And I also agree they stand apart from Man City Chelsea and Utd, I never suggested otherwise, they are clearly in a lower tier. But again, you're entitled to your opinion, but Arsenal always finish in the Champions league places, we have once in the last 5 years. That for me is a different class of club, as it was for Sanchez, Ozil, and likely many other top players.

Arsenal are only marginally better than us. They show no real ambition to win things as is shown by all the good players that have jumped ship. They've only spent big twice too and Ozil has been nothing short of a failure. Before that their biggest transfer was Reyes I think all those years ago.

They maintain their position and nothing more so can't see how they can be second tier and us third?

Well I guess it is subjective where you draw your partitions. I think we can all agree that they aren't top tier. So the only question left is why is there a difference between us and them? I've outlined it a lot now, but you don't have to agree that's fine, Sanchez does though and unfortunately it's his opinion that counts. Getting consistent Champions league football is absolutely massive and sets you apart in the eyes of the footballing world. So for me we can't be in the same tier as them as players quite clearly don't think we are, as we can't attract big name players and they can. They get the revenue from Champions league each year too. And have a brand spanking new modern stadium and we are going for a patch up job. I can't really make it any clearer, there are quite obviously things that set them apart and ahead of us, the (arguably) best Premier league player this year so far says so himself, but fair enough if you don't think those numerous things warrant a partition of a whole other tier, because its just semantics. They quite clearly have a number of important advantages ahead of us, and that showed in the summer when we went after the same high profile target, despite us nearly winning a title.

So you agree that Arsenal aren't quite dining at the top table, but they are so far ahead of us because they signed Sanchez (but constantly lose all their best players) and scrape 4th every year (we finished second last year, by the way) that they are in their own subgroup of one???

No one is saying which team is better, but in terms of goals for each new season, Liverpool & Arsenal are clearly in the same boat, are they not???

Clearly we're never going to see eye to eye on this one, what can you do tho