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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,824
Under 23 Player
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Under 23 Player
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,824 |
Why Stanley? I don't mean to argue. But if I have an opinion on something, I will have done so giving it a lot of thought and doing any research I need to check I am not over-sighting the obvious or looking at it the wrong way. If you have an alternate opinion, at least give me some points to look at that you know are true, then its great debate. Otherwise, it is just one person making points, and another person having an opinion and not backing it up. You don't have to back it up for me specifically (its not about me and ego)... it is just for the sake of discussion. If everyone was that open/transparent, this forum would be great.
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 27,628
Liverpool Legend
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Liverpool Legend
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 27,628 |
Why Stanley? I don't mean to argue. But if I have an opinion on something, I will have done so giving it a lot of thought and doing any research I need to check I am not over-sighting the obvious or looking at it the wrong way. If you have an alternate opinion, at least give me some points to look at that you know are true, then its great debate. Otherwise, it is just one person making points, and another person having an opinion and not backing it up. You don't have to back it up for me specifically (its not about me and ego)... it is just for the sake of discussion. If everyone was that open/transparent, this forum would be great. You have just described why I don't want to argue with you, you might beat me. However my little joke went right over your head maybe that's something to work on. By the way not having a go just bringing a little light heartedness to this oh so serious forum.
IF YOU WANT TO BE HEARD SPEAK SOFTLY - BOB PAISLEY
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,824
Under 23 Player
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Under 23 Player
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,824 |
I knew it was a joke haha! I am glad someone is trying to keep us all light-hearted. It really is a serious thread. I was half tempted to post a completely random photo of a young Christina Hendricks with a clown just to break it up! Screw it:   Think it is fair to say some money is permanently on display on her body...
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 22,926
Liverpool Legend
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Liverpool Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 22,926 |
What's this patronising attitude of telling me what I should and shouldn't do here, we are all giving our opinions and this is not a forum of supporting or not supporting LFC, as far as I understand we are all fans of LFC here. That is not how I intended it to come across. I apologise if any offence was taken. It doesn't change my opinion that a lot of fans on here are so downbeat and pessimistic, and to me, that is how you're coming across. You have an opinion that we're trying to debate about, and you can't even suggest point by point why you think that. You have made wild assertions about clubs, which I have just taken one, looked at, analysed, and shown you it is not entirely true, and you can't accept it. To me, that is stubborn-ness, nothing to do with realism. Realism, is seeing that right now, we are amongst a group of 4 teams that with a good window, can compete for 4th. Realism, is knowing that comparing us to any team that automatically qualified for the Champions League is not realistic in the slightest. We are not at that level right now. I also never said that there are guarantees of a player becoming good when we pay higher fees, what I said is (and I don't even understand how you can deny this) that the risk of failure is lower when you buy a proven player or manager. In fact, the price of a player is higher because the risk you would be taking for him to be good is lower and vice versa, this is how it works in a market. Why do you think that a player is priced more expensive than another one in a market? 1. Proven players have failed in the Premier League just like unproven ones. What the club is paying for is talent against potential. 2. The selling club pricing up their own players has nothing to do with risk factors at all. They are pricing the player, most of the time, based on how they compare to other similar players, and in order to find suitable replacements/reinforcements. Again, it is subjective, not objective reasoning. 3. The price is not determined by the club purchasing him deciding whether it is a risk or not. The buying club decides on whether to spend the money on players, and therefore a risk assessment could be made, but it is not part of a discussion from the selling team at all. Current + Perceived talent is what pricing players is based on, because every league in the world is different, and he is as unlikely/likely to success in Germany as the UK. If a player is used to pass and move football, he is not priced differently for Italian teams as Spanish. The suggestion that it is down to risk would mean it would be. Much more likely to settle into a similar style of play than a different one. We can definitely be lucky and get gems by paying low and looking at the players we have bought (except the keeper), we are definitely relying on this right now (this may change if we do buy proven greats in the next few weeks). I would say, recently, only Dortmund has succeeded a few seasons with this strategy and how long they are going to do it is a question mark. Bayern's strategy is different and their chances of success according to me is way far better than Dortmund. Recently, it is only the teams who keep on investing on great players that have been successful but some have done it by spending relatively less because they have grown some players. We haven't been very successful with this neither, there hasn't been any greats since Steven Gerrard, I am not sure why this will change drastically with FSG, in Benitez time, there were a lot of talks on developing players, this is why we have an academy also By the way, all the big teams have good youth system now and they are all buying young potentials on the cheap, very often then loaning them out.
No problem to be an optimist, but, some degree of realism would help. You may not think the keeper is cheap. I'm not going to try to convince you of that. But the perceived value of all players has rocketed. Keepers are making more and more of a difference in the league, so I don't think it is a surprise that we paid near £10m for him. Dortmund's squad was built on far less money. They spent barely a penny, in a league they are struggling to offer high salaries to their own players. It has proven to most pundits and fans that with the right strategy, in a league growing and offering more finances, that you can catch up. We're not in the same predicament, because we have a far superior salary budget before we even start qualifying for Europe again. To suggest there aren't differences in quality between the top teams in terms of Academys, is like saying there is not difference between the top 3 teams in the league squad-wise, because from the outset, they all look capable. It is plainly not true. If you can distinguish, in your own self, that one team has the best defence, another has the best wingers and another has the best midfielders, you say so. All the Academys have had mixed success. Man Utd have produced few players since Beckham that have gone on to play for the club long-term! Check out the figures if you don't believe me. They are not all good. Chelsea are much the same, and Man City have sacrificed theirs since the new owners came in. They sell on their good youth for mid-range fees, to help fund the signings of players further along the line. We are not buying academy players anyway. Luis Alberto (and the rumoured Ilori) are perceived to be talented players that have broken through at big clubs. They have contributed successfully since they were introduced to their teams. And are playing at a league level similar to a combined Premier League/Championship. I have tried to be as realistic with my post, with as many references to facts I know for certain, and opinions I don't feel cross to unrealistic. I am not going to say take it or leave it - an element of discussion is needed to convince me any different, not the same point posted over and over again. Sorry I am a bit lost with the point you are making, are you saying that we bought a keeper for cheap? So are you still disputing that the risk of failure with unproven and therefore cheaper players is bigger than with proven ones? When I mentioned that even the great teams have youth Academies, I meant that there is no reason to believe that our youth development programme will be better than others we want to catch.
Last edited by vish LFC; 29/06/13 12:04 PM.
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,824
Under 23 Player
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Under 23 Player
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,824 |
No, but I am saying it is a fair value for Mignolet. Not cheap, but good considering his age, league experience and recent form.
I think great players still have leagues they are better in than others, so yes, I think all signings are as risky as each other. You can balance the lower risk in the player, at the higher risk of the total cost for a "proven player".
No-one said our academy is the best/better?! I am just making the point that few players make it through to play for their own club. Utd and Chelsea are prime examples of that.
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 8,791
1st Team Squad
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1st Team Squad
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 8,791 |
Rubbish...perhaps expensive players have simply had the oppurtunity to prove themselves on the big stage and cheap ones havent yet..How much did Nasri cost before he moved to Arsenal? Dzeko before he played for Wolfsburg? CHicharito? Coutinho? Michu? Demba BA before newcastle? Each and every player only becomes expensive once they get a chance to prove themselves on the big stage...
Ask Porto how much they paid for Hulk, Falcao, Martinez, Rodriguez....So, as I said, players become expensive once they get an oppurtunity to showcase their talents on a big stage. It doesnt mean they were of a lower quality when playing for a smaller side. So you see, it really is not that simple is it?
SImple as that mate...
Sign Reus
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 22,926
Liverpool Legend
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Liverpool Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 22,926 |
Rubbish...perhaps expensive players have simply had the oppurtunity to prove themselves on the big stage and cheap ones havent yet..How much did Nasri cost before he moved to Arsenal? Dzeko before he played for Wolfsburg? CHicharito? Coutinho? Michu? Demba BA before newcastle? Each and every player only becomes expensive once they get a chance to prove themselves on the big stage...
Ask Porto how much they paid for Hulk, Falcao, Martinez, Rodriguez....So, as I said, players become expensive once they get an oppurtunity to showcase their talents on a big stage. It doesnt mean they were of a lower quality when playing for a smaller side. So you see, it really is not that simple is it?
SImple as that mate... With your logic teams are mad to pay high fees for players then, Real Madrid are crazy to be wanting to sign Suarez. I wonder how Chelsea and City became better clubs than us in the last few years, they should have gone for cheaper players. Both Chelsea and City have a better chance than us to finish in the top 4, but, you probably think otherwise.
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,824
Under 23 Player
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Under 23 Player
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,824 |
I think the point that Prolific Borini is trying to make, is similar to my own stance. If you play in a top league, and have performed, your value is much greater because you have proven it in a top league. There is a limit to how much players are worth in lesser leagues, and it has nothing to do with a players talent, only that they haven't been able to showcase it on a bigger scale. Gary Hooper's value is nowhere near as high as his talent might suggest, less than Sturridge, who had proven he could score in the PL. Wanyama's value is limited to about £12m right now. Anyone looking for a top class defensive midfielder should be looking at a guy that helped keep Barca at bay. Why is that value not high? Because of consistency in a top league. He hasn't had a chance to show it, therefore his value is less. Celtic know that the value of selling him could bring in lots of players, so they have set an acceptable compromise from parting with him. They could price him as high as they want, but they know he is replaceable. It is not as simple as risk factors. It is brands, shirt sales, talent, perceived league quality etc. You scout the player, not the price.
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 8,791
1st Team Squad
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1st Team Squad
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 8,791 |
Rubbish...perhaps expensive players have simply had the oppurtunity to prove themselves on the big stage and cheap ones havent yet..How much did Nasri cost before he moved to Arsenal? Dzeko before he played for Wolfsburg? CHicharito? Coutinho? Michu? Demba BA before newcastle? Each and every player only becomes expensive once they get a chance to prove themselves on the big stage...
Ask Porto how much they paid for Hulk, Falcao, Martinez, Rodriguez....So, as I said, players become expensive once they get an oppurtunity to showcase their talents on a big stage. It doesnt mean they were of a lower quality when playing for a smaller side. So you see, it really is not that simple is it?
SImple as that mate... With your logic teams are mad to pay high fees for players then, Real Madrid are crazy to be wanting to sign Suarez. I wonder how Chelsea and City became better clubs than us in the last few years, they should have gone for cheaper players. Both Chelsea and City have a better chance than us to finish in the top 4, but, you probably think otherwise. Vish, dont be like that. I am well aware of where we stand, but I am saying that what Chelsea and Citz are doing is not sustainable and that we will overtake them in the long run. Remember the tortoise and the hare. How did Barca and Bayern and United get to where they are today? Was it by spending 100 mil every transfer window on only the biggest stars? How did QPR fair with their multi million pound transfers? Rafael, Fabio, Evra, Cleverley, Valencia, Nani, Vidic, Buttner, Fletcher, Chicharito, Varane, Tello, Pedro, Arbeloa, Pique, Busquets, Muller, Kroos, Schweinsteiger, Messi....none of those players were bought for mega millions in their prime...they were brought in as young potential and developed into stars. Perhaps, you know better though. Perhaps United, Bayern and Barca should take the approach you are advising instead. Maybe they have got it all wrong... 1 big player per transfer window is more than enough, for me that player this window is Mkhitarzan...and I am very happy with the rest so far, Aspas, Toure etc.
Sign Reus
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,824
Under 23 Player
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Under 23 Player
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,824 |
Rubbish...perhaps expensive players have simply had the oppurtunity to prove themselves on the big stage and cheap ones havent yet..How much did Nasri cost before he moved to Arsenal? Dzeko before he played for Wolfsburg? CHicharito? Coutinho? Michu? Demba BA before newcastle? Each and every player only becomes expensive once they get a chance to prove themselves on the big stage...
Ask Porto how much they paid for Hulk, Falcao, Martinez, Rodriguez....So, as I said, players become expensive once they get an oppurtunity to showcase their talents on a big stage. It doesnt mean they were of a lower quality when playing for a smaller side. So you see, it really is not that simple is it?
SImple as that mate... With your logic teams are mad to pay high fees for players then, Real Madrid are crazy to be wanting to sign Suarez. I wonder how Chelsea and City became better clubs than us in the last few years, they should have gone for cheaper players. Both Chelsea and City have a better chance than us to finish in the top 4, but, you probably think otherwise. Vish, dont be like that. I am well aware of where we stand, but I am saying that what Chelsea and Citz are doing is not sustainable and that we will overtake them in the long run. Remember the tortoise and the hare. How did Barca and Bayern and United get to where they are today? Was it by spending 100 mil every transfer window on only the biggest stars? How did QPR fair with their multi million pound transfers? Rafael, Fabio, Evra, Cleverley, Valencia, Nani, Vidic, Buttner, Fletcher, Chicharito, Varane, Tello, Pedro, Arbeloa, Pique, Busquets, Muller, Kroos, Schweinsteiger, Messi....none of those players were bought for mega millions in their prime...they were brought in as young potential and developed into stars. Perhaps, you know better though. Perhaps United, Bayern and Barca should take the approach you are advising instead. Maybe they have got it all wrong... 1 big player per transfer window is more than enough, for me that player this window is Mkhitarzan...and I am very happy with the rest so far, Aspas, Toure etc. +1
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