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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 583
Under 18 Player
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Under 18 Player
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 583 |
Mick does a good interview. 
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 22,926
Liverpool Legend
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Liverpool Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 22,926 |
What really worked for Klopp is that there was not much pressure on him at Dortmund to even qualify for champions league, like it is and will always be at LFC and he gave them a lot of hope by winning a cup in his first season at Dortmund. I am sure he would have been sacked at Bayern if he came 6th and 5th. Coming 6th was an acheivement because Dortmund then improved from 13th place of their previous season. We should compare like with like before drawing conclusions.
That said, if we do get at least 10 pts in our last 5 games, i would give BR a chance for the first 12 games of next season and would keep him if we get an average of at least 1.8 pts per game. In any case if he is replaced, it should be by a proven trophy winner, no chances anymore with young managers with potential.
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,824
Under 23 Player
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Under 23 Player
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,824 |
What really worked for Klopp is that there was not much pressure on him at Dortmund to even qualify for champions league, like it is and will always be at LFC and he gave them a lot of hope by winning a cup in his first season at Dortmund. I am sure he would have been sacked at Bayern if he came 6th and 5th. Coming 6th was an acheivement because Dortmund then improved from 13th place of their previous season. We should compare like with like before drawing conclusions. They are one of the best know, reputable and successful teams in Germany, and were before he arrived. Even if they had failed to gain that success of late, they have still won 3 Budesliga titles since we last won ours. They won a Champions League in that time, like ourselves, and also made a Uefa Cup final, even if they finished runners-up on that occassion. They reached a cup final the year before Klopp joined. The justified comparison is there for all to see. That said, if we do get at least 10 pts in our last 5 games, i would give BR a chance for the first 12 games of next season and would keep him if we get an average of at least 1.8 pts per game. In any case if he is replaced, it should be by a proven trophy winner, no chances anymore with young managers with potential. I don't get setting a pts per game target before the fixture list has even come out. If we had to play both Manchester Clubs and a couple of top London-based clubs, we might hit below that target and sack him based on technicalities. 12 games into a season would mean around November time. A club that until Roy came in had never ended a managers reign mid-season. I don't get the "no chances anymore with young managers" bit either. When is the last time we did it? Kenny, Roy, Rafa and Houllier, to name the last four managers for which have covered us for 14 years before Rodgers, were all experienced professionals. Roy Evans was the last guy to come in without previous experience (and Rodgers does have a lot of coaching experience even if his "honours" list doesn't match-up). I can understand contemplating his future mid-season if our challenge for Europe is looking unlikely, or if the signings he makes and players he sells means we struggle in comparison to how we started last season. Because of his selling point, if our style of football directly contributed to an early-season downfall I could understand it to a degree... But ultimately, I think if the club are going to keep him, they have to keep him for the season. Showing faith shouldn't be as skin-deep as some people on here seem to be letting on.
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 22,926
Liverpool Legend
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Liverpool Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 22,926 |
What really worked for Klopp is that there was not much pressure on him at Dortmund to even qualify for champions league, like it is and will always be at LFC and he gave them a lot of hope by winning a cup in his first season at Dortmund. I am sure he would have been sacked at Bayern if he came 6th and 5th. Coming 6th was an acheivement because Dortmund then improved from 13th place of their previous season. We should compare like with like before drawing conclusions. They are one of the best know, reputable and successful teams in Germany, and were before he arrived. Even if they had failed to gain that success of late, they have still won 3 Budesliga titles since we last won ours. They won a Champions League in that time, like ourselves, and also made a Uefa Cup final, even if they finished runners-up on that occassion. They reached a cup final the year before Klopp joined. The justified comparison is there for all to see. That said, if we do get at least 10 pts in our last 5 games, i would give BR a chance for the first 12 games of next season and would keep him if we get an average of at least 1.8 pts per game. In any case if he is replaced, it should be by a proven trophy winner, no chances anymore with young managers with potential. I don't get setting a pts per game target before the fixture list has even come out. If we had to play both Manchester Clubs and a couple of top London-based clubs, we might hit below that target and sack him based on technicalities. 12 games into a season would mean around November time. A club that until Roy came in had never ended a managers reign mid-season. I don't get the "no chances anymore with young managers" bit either. When is the last time we did it? Kenny, Roy, Rafa and Houllier, to name the last four managers for which have covered us for 14 years before Rodgers, were all experienced professionals. Roy Evans was the last guy to come in without previous experience (and Rodgers does have a lot of coaching experience even if his "honours" list doesn't match-up). I can understand contemplating his future mid-season if our challenge for Europe is looking unlikely, or if the signings he makes and players he sells means we struggle in comparison to how we started last season. Because of his selling point, if our style of football directly contributed to an early-season downfall I could understand it to a degree... But ultimately, I think if the club are going to keep him, they have to keep him for the season. Showing faith shouldn't be as skin-deep as some people on here seem to be letting on. Yes Dortmund is a good club that does win trophies but don't you agree that in Germany, the usual expectation is for Bayern not to lose it, instead of anybody to win and coming fron 13th to 6th and winning a cup in his first season is an appreciable improvement bringing up confidence. If we had improved 2-3 places (not even qualifying for champions league) and winning a Cup would have put confidence of most fans, right now BR performance is questionnable at least. I agree that the fixtures list is important to set an average pts per game target, 1.8pts is the average that I would review either upwards or downwards once fixtures are published. The performance of BR has really been up and down this season and if we start the same way next season, a call will have to be made. I am not among those who say, give time no matter what, it is important to set targets after that BR has had a full season and probably would have had a net spent of 75m (I am assuming a net spent of 25m in summer).
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,824
Under 23 Player
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Under 23 Player
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,824 |
Dortmund was like a clean canvas for Klopp. Rodgers didn't walk into a club with one. Thats the only real difference between the two teams in terms of situation. Its fair to say Munich almost always go into a season as favourites. But the title does move around a lot amongst the other clubs. Wolfsburg, Stuttgart, Werder Bremen. You could say the same about Man United. They have won a lot over the last couple of decades. And over the same period of time, only Arsenal, Chelsea and Man City have broken the trend. Since the induction of the Premier League, United have dominated titles more so than Bayern have in their respective leagues.
Klopp did win them a cup and that should and would be applauded if Rodgers had done the same. The cup he won though, was the equivalent of the charity shield. Don't blow this out of proportion. It was great for him to win a cup, but they have only won 1 german cup and 1 german supercup since he took over.
I just don't agree with the way you would go about judging the managers record. I am a firm believer that there should be manager windows much like transfer windows and generally I have always judged them in the same vein:
1. Set a points total for the end of the season that is above the level of the club, and something to strive for.
2. At the mid-point (between games 16 and 22), see how the record matches up. If it is slightly under half or about half he stays. If it is much lower, consider available options and then decide.
3. Otherwise, place trust in him for the entire season and let him does his job without needless pressure from above.
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,163
1st Team Squad
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1st Team Squad
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,163 |
I like to assess him as anyone else would be assessed in their job. If they aren't doing well they are moved on - there's no luxury of waiting until the end of the year (season) to try and turn things around. I don't think there should be any particular time when a manager should/could be sacked. The 'end of the season' argument has no real justification if a manager isn't doing very well. It's often used an excuse by fans for wanting their favoruite manager to stay on but in reality, there's no sense in keeping someone once they have demonstrated that they are sub standard.
And no, "time" isn't the answer. Sometimes managers get better over 'time', but generally they get worse, which is why there are so many sackings these days. The key is not "time or patience", it is being able to see when your manager has peaked and done all he can, and is on his way down or slipping backwards.
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,365
Under 23 Player
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Under 23 Player
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,365 |
there are usually many other barometers to indicate a manager is on the wain not just points on the board. Lost dressing room, apathy and a general look of dispair(see Hodgson clips) tend to indicate that there is big problem.
Harry Redknapp has probably shown that changing a manager mid eason can offer vast improvements intially but long term lacks the nouse to push on. His skills being uniting a dressing room and getting the last drop out of fallen idols. Hi transfers generally have been very short term.
BR has offered Liverpool a long term strategy, focusing on youth development and buying up and coming talent. His coaching from what we see is excellent, so many players have improved under him. What we require now is his management and tactical kills if we are to push on. Rafa for example was a master tactician and coach but his downfall came from his cold approach to players - just too ruthless.
therefore to assess wheter to replace a manager the points tally is only part of the equation. Does BR offer a long term strategy that the club want one, so far yes.
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,163
1st Team Squad
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1st Team Squad
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,163 |
Fair comment. I wasn't necessarily referring to Brendan though. My comment was more a generalisation on any/all managers.
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