KopTalk.com Forums Football Liverpool FC Forum Accepting that we're not very good.....

One of the things that I've seen of late on here are people exploding with anger, venting their spleen and going bezerk when some people are pointing out that Liverpool Football Club aren't very good.

There might be several explanations for this; Perhaps that's just wrong and actually we're the best team in the league and 'unlucky' or 'hard done to'. Perhaps we are quite good compared to most and the subjective phrase "Not very good" depends on where you want to sit and what your ideals are. Perhaps the anger comes from the lack of some people to realise that a phrase "Not very good" isn't a permanent arrangement - but perhaps just a temporary phrase to describe the club at the moment. Some of the anger might be that someone using a phrase such as "Not very good" are attacking their club and their team and their players and these things must be defended at all costs. Perhaps some people are going mental is because they see a phrase such as "Not very good" as being negative and not up to what you'd expect a supporter to say about his own club.

Many of those things are possible and probable. And that's fine if no discussion, discourse, analysis and chat is permitted about the position the club is presently in.

It seems clear to me - fact, in fact - that we're out of two cups, unlikely to progress in the last remaining one (That we've been mediocre in) and we're more-or-less midtable in an average league and likely to stay around where we are til the end of the season - give or take a league place up or down. For me that would suit the phrase "Not very good" to a tee.

The players for whatever reason aren't being consistant and in most games can veer from looking very, very good to very, very bad. The system is the same. Some weeks it looks fantastic and we look world beaters. The next we look like we'd struggle to knock the skin off a plate of rice pudding. The manager too seems to look incredible and wise one week and less so the next.

That's because... well.. no other way of saying it "We're not very good." To me that's a fact. It's not negative. It's not slagging off the club, players, fans, manager or team. It's just an observation of where we are. It's not static and stuck and it's not going to remain that way forever - you would hope. Rodgers was brought in and Kenny was moved out because the owners thought we weren't very good. Rodgers aim is to get us first of all past where we are and onto a higher plane. Our intial aim is to become 'good' once again. That means consistancy, some showing in the league and cups, a demonstration of the depth of the squad, the right personnel in and the wrong personnel out. But we aren't good yet. Nowhere near in fact.

But! Once we've secured our aim of being 'good' again (Which might well take a few seasons - again, we hope). Our aim then is to become 'very good'. Once we reach that goal then I'd say we'd be not only consistant, but regularly challenging for the league, putting in a good performance and actually be feared once again in the league. Even those that disagree with the words that we're "Not very good" can't really argue that we are anywhere near good - and surely they have to agree that we're miles away from being "Very good".

Discussion and hope are two things this forum does best. But honesty in that discussion allows the conversations and more importantly the points that you learn from able to be raised. I've probably learned as much about footy off here from certain posters as I have watching us getting tonked by A.N. Other side somewhere in Europe. It's not negative to admit where we are. Because we've always had the ability in the past to be "good" and "Very good" and our aim has to be just that. We have to stop being "Not very Good" and get to where we want to be. And that's going to take time. The sooner you can accept where we are, what we are, what we have to do and where we want to be then a lot of the anger will dissapate and we can get on with the job of supporting the club, manager, players and team. Because you can bet your life that they know exactly where we are now and you can bet that they aren't happy and they want better.

We're not very good. I've said it. Let's see if we can get better than that in the months and seasons to come.

What are you thoughts, are you guilty of thinking we're better than we actually are? I certainly am.

Extremely long so not gonna read it now as I'm tired however if the post is like the title suggest then no I will never admit that we are no good.

Disagree with the post. I question not only your denial of progress, but the idea that the team is not good... The squad depth is poor, granted, but the overall quality of a base squad of 16-18 is more than solid.


Just to backup my point, here is the progress..


In our first 8 games this season, we had mustered a mere 9 points, despite 5 of those games being at home, and only 3 away. 5 points at home and 4 away. Only two league wins. That is just over a point a game.

In our second 8 games, we managed 13 points. The three games at home brought 2 wins and a draw. Our away form continued to bring mixed results, but still picking up 6 points from 5 games... That works out at about a point and a half a game.

In our most recent run of games, we have picked up 3 more home wins and only one loss. Away from home, we have won 1, lost 2 and drawn one. Thats another 13 points and therefore a point and a half a game.

Look at the quality of away opposition in those last two sets of 8 games and you notice the progress... Draws at Everton, Chelsea and Arsenal and only losing away to Stoke, Man Utd and Spurs (All tough grounds to go to).

We have moved on from a shock home loss against Villa to score 12 goals in 3 games, in 3,4 and 5 nil wins. We have gone 11 games without failing to score, since a 0-0 draw against a then high-flying Swansea... Thats progress, mostly respectable results from a team rebuilding and still challenging for Europe and potentially Spurs, Everton and Arsenal for fourth...

Very good = united, city (most likely league winners)
Good = arsenal, spurs, chelsea, everton (challengers for CL spots)
Not very good = us down to fulham (no mans land/mid table, callit what you want..)
Poor = the rest (relegation material)


"Not very good", is a perfect description of where we are right now.

The problem with cherry picking the stats to suit your opinion is that there are always strong counter-arguments. If you disagree that we're 'not very good', perhaps you could explain the following:

1) how come we've failed at every attempt to beat a team above us in the league
2) how come we failed to beat a poor Oldham team from league 1
3) how come we've lost to the likes of stoke, villa & swansea in the league
4) why did we struggle against mansfield

I would say until we can beat a team in the top half that we are certainly in the "not very good" category.

This is fair enough, each will have different reasoning to why we're not very good or that we are progressing - But as CarheeX said, your argument is easy to counter. The most valid point of his points is that we've failed to beat a team in the top 10, I see that as being "Not very good".

1. We have failed to beat the teams above us, because of numerous reasons. The Arsenal game we could have definitely broken that record. Ultimately, bad defending at a set piece that led to a goal spurred them on to grab another... The Man City game earlier in the season will haunt me for a while, but ultimately we should have won. A bad mistake cost us that day. In the United game at Anfield we lost because of a harsh red card, that made Utd's comeback a little easier. I mean bad and good records get broken or made all the time. Sometimes there is no physical explanation. Most people seem to forget that you EXPECT to get some mixed results early in the season if you bring in a manager to completely change your style of play. Rodgers, was unlucky to face the standard of opposition he did so soon in the league, and at home which added to the pressure. To pin-point one problem, is impossible. We have managed to get points away from home against the other "big teams" since then. I think you expect to get results against big teams at home, and push for them away. I don't think this so-called problem is one to suggest we aren't very good. It just shows that maybe we don't have as many match-winners, or that we tire in games late on, or that we have played most of them away from home now, and should be expecting a win or two in our remaining games. We had terrible form at the end of last season. Relegation form. You can't just suddenly start winning. Well you could... but you shouldn't expect it.

2. We failed to win at Oldham, for the same reason Burton got a replay at Old Trafford. For the same reason Brentford got a result against Chelsea. Sometimes you have a bad game against lower league opposition and it makes a difference in the FA Cup away from home. In recent memory... Didn't Burnley knock Arsenal out of the League Cup. And Leeds knocked out "unbeatable" Man United in the FA Cup... Come. On.

3. Stoke have been beaten at home only once this season to Chelsea. Losing there was disappointing, but they are one of the most difficult teams to break down, and despite our good defensive record, we defended badly that day, We played into Villa's hands, and played badly. We controlled the ball and looked fragile on the counter. Swansea in the League Cup I presume you mean... because we drew with them away in the league. Sometimes you play badly and get punished, the teams recent results have been winning more and losing games... Rather than constantly drawing. We have had to play young players while relieving big name first-teamers off the age bill. It means when we could start with Kuyt, and bring on Maxi, we now start with Sterling, and bring on Suso, while getting better results than Kenny did at the end of last year in the league. These young players are good, they just don't have the same level of game-time, or experience of making key decisions at key moments.

4. We struggled against Mansfield for the same reasons we struggled against Havant & Waterlooville a few seasons ago. Its the occasion. Its the lack of squad depth. Its the use of young inexperienced players. Its the playing against the unknown. And its the going into games thinking "WE SHOULD WIN" and not playing as well as they can. Mentality is the key word that Rodgers uses. You either have it, develop it, or leave. Rodgers has got Henderson and Downing believing in themselves now, but it takes time for it to rub off on everyone. Suarez has it, and the players that he has brought in appear to have it. Hard-working players whose heads don't go down when we concede. I digress. We have struggled for consistency for a long, long time. I think Rodgers has been developing a consistent team to build on, but I admit, this is my opinion, and you are entirely free to make up your own mind.

You should listen to yourself. Excuse after excuse after excuse......Is it not conceivable that maybe, just maybe, we're not as superb as we once were?

Along with the souness teams this is the worst I can remember. But souness followed kenny and rodgers followed kenny probably co-incidence but there it is. I would say we are not very good but getting better and I think we are albeit very slowly.