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Joined: May 2010
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Under 23 Player
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Under 23 Player
Joined: May 2010
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Hounded is a bit dramatic don't you think?
No its not for this forum, since when do you get called things constantly for having a realistic viable point of view, and it not being a form of hounding? Now to the point: It is 100% realistic for that many players to come through into our first team and for that small minority group on here who hound people for saying something is realistically achievable, (just because they might not agree with it), does not make the point untrue. We have THE most talented youth set up in the country AT THE MOMENT and a lot of that is down to Rafa's foundations and Rodolfo Borrell nurturing of the talent. (Mind you, our academy wasn't always this full brimming with talent, so credit to Rafa for getting it up and running in the 21st century) We could not have brought in a better youth coach than Borrell, because he has been there and done this at Barcelona. You look at that Barca first 11, 90% of them have been brought through, because the club as a whole made a conscience decision to do it this way, rather than spending the millions on players to come in. This has been proven to work and is 100% justified now in hindsight. Barcelona are now reaping the rewards.Is it impossible for Liverpool Football Club to do the same? I'm not saying our youth are on the level of some of the Spanish clubs, but we obviously have SOMETHING right at the Academy at the moment. Rodgers appointment is crucial because his philosophy will meet eye to eye at the pinnacle right through all the levels at the club. We needed a manager like this, so the players coming through the ranks don't just get to the top and end up playing a different kind of football to what they have been learning all the way to that point. This is crucial for it all to work. Spain got it right because they've been doing it this way for a while and making sure all the ladders connect all the way up to biggest stage. In England and other country's, that progression is fragmented, we're starting to teach the youngsters the right way, but what good is it, if the manager of the football club (right at the top of all of it), doesn't believe in that same exact philosophy? (An example of this is Hodgson managing England. It makes no sense!) .....and finally, before some smart arse says "Yes, but who have we brought through to back up your view"  The answer is, nobody as of yet, but just wait and see over the next 3-4 years.  I think you are a bit sensitive and dramatic to claim to have been hounded, especially considering how you sometimes address people. But you are completely entitled to feel how you feel. I personally believe expecting THAT many players to come through in such a short space of time is a tad unrealistic. Even barca and Ajax tend to only have 1 or 2 players hit the first team every year, and that is unheard of until they broke the mould. It is a truly incredible achievement. Good point on borrell, he does seem to be doing a cracking job, and it is clear there is an improvement in the youngsters being able to bridge the gap between youth and reserve, and reserve and senior squad football. I still (personally) couldn't say we have THE most talented youth set up at the moment. I agree we have a very strong set of coaches and again very good point about BR being in charge means we have a style of footie running from the ground up which will help, just like how barca and ajax do it, and one of the reasons they are so succesfull. I also can't dispute we seem to have a sh!t load of talented youngsters but I've seen youngsters with incredible talent not make the step up many more times than I've seen them make it. Certainly a lot of reason to be optimistic, but our youth system still hasn't done anything yet so I can't claim it to be the best or most talented. If some of these players start coming through then thats a different story. Currently arsenal and utd are both producing more every couple of years. In utds case they tend to sell them and floor the PL with former Utd kids. Like you say, the next 3 or 4 years will tell. Plenty of reason to be very very optimistic, but still nothing sound enough yet for me personally to claim our youth set up is the most talented. Yes but your basing that on who is coming through. That doesn't mean that our current youth squad isnt the most talented though. Does it? Surely if you look at the youth squads, not which team is bringing the most players through, doesn't actually mean its more talented. The goal of course is to bring them through. Thats the goal, the ideal ending. Man United and Arsenal don't bring them through like they used to, and they tend to be loosing players to other clubs now because they are not willing to give them the chances needed anymore, they'd rather go and spend money to bring players in, today. Ravel Morrison Paul Pogba Spring to mind. Name me a club in the league who is bringing through youth players like teams used to? Nobody is. So I'm solely basing my opinion of what I've seen our YOUTH TEAM (as it is now) doing up against other teams in our league and not what teams are bringing the most through. Surely thats effectiveness, not talent? Perhaps. But I'd argue the fact that more youngsters come through means they were more talented. For me how they perform against other kids isn't a true test of their talent. The true test of how talented they are is if they make the step up. And like you said yourself, you can't know that for a few years. So you can only really measure how talented the kids in our youth set up are retrospectively to a certain extent. Even if we do go by how well they do against other kids. We aren't winning all the youth cups. So we aren't even the most talented in that department. Like I said, plenty of reason to be optimistic, but nothing concrete enough to suggest we have THE most talented youth set up at the moment. On your other point, no Utd and arsenal aren't bringing as many through, but they are bringing through more first teamers than us. Also in Utd's case, the PL is littered with their former youth, ours tend to go to league 1 or the championship.
Last edited by mybloodisred; 22/07/12 05:07 PM.
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craney91
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craney91
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You already admitted not all talented youth players kick on and come through. But just because they didnt come through, doesn't mean they weren't talented. So your cant base players coming through solely as the reason for their talent, an awful lot of it is down to coaching and what manager is prepared to give them the chances they need to make it.
Talent only gets you so far, the rest is in the hands of the gods.
So when you view our youth team up against the other youth teams in the league, IMO we have the best at the moment.
In terms of bringing players through, which is a different topic entirely its difficult to gauge which team in the league is ahead of the rest, because they don't bring them through with the velocity teams like Man United and Arsenal used to, proof of this is that there youth players are going elsewhere to play football (in the same league or lower) that isn't a success for that football club if they loose them is it?
So you cant really use "the league is littered with former Manchester United youth" can you? (and anyway I'd like to find if that is indeed true???) Manchester United only got them so far.
For me, I have to look further down the league(s) to find a team that is bringing through the youth at there own club, and I'm looking at Crystal Palace and Birmingham, these are being more effective than the teams in the Premier League, but that doesn't mean that they are more talented, do they?
These clubs may have no other choice but to do what they do! Some of those clubs have budgets and constraints, which means they cant sign players like Premier League teams can, so in a way are forced to use the youth they have.
The best four examples of club teams being effective in bringing through there youth, aren't even in this country, they are Ajax, Barcelona, Valencia and Athletic Bilbao.
...and they are still bringing through players till this day, UNLIKE the rest of the top European teams.
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,679
Under 23 Player
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Under 23 Player
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,679 |
You already admitted not all talented youth players kick on and come through. But just because they didnt come through, doesn't mean they weren't talented. So your cant base players coming through solely as the reason for their talent, an awful lot of it is down to coaching and what manager is prepared to give them the chances they need to make it. I admitted? Am I on trial? Calm down mate its just a discussion. Youth players can be talented, but if they don't 'kick on' then they don't have the talent i.e. are not talented enough. There is one reason for youth teams, and it is to produce players for the first team. That is its sole purpose. If they didn't come through, unless it was due to injury or laziness, then it means they weren't talented enough to be a professional football player for LFC. I can do and should base a players talent on how far they make it. That is fact. Unless like I said there are outside factors that prevent it, if a player doesn't make it, it's cause he isn't talented enough.
Talent only gets you so far, the rest is in the hands of the gods.
By hands of the gods you mean hard work and determination yeah?
So when you view our youth team up against the other youth teams in the league, IMO we have the best at the moment.
Even though we haven't won anything at youth level for a while? I'll let you off that point because they are cup competitions and odd things can happen, but what your basing it on is far too vague and purely subjective. There is nothing tangible to say our youth set up is the most talented, there is actually more evidence to the contrary. But as you said its your opinion and as its subjective thats fine.
In terms of bringing players through, which is a different topic entirely [/qoute]
You might like it to be...but it's factually not. It is the BEST way to gauge a young players talent. If he makes it as a talented footballer...clue is in the words.
[quote=craney91]
its difficult to gauge which team in the league is ahead of the rest, because they don't bring them through with the velocity teams like Man United and Arsenal used to, proof of this is that there youth players are going elsewhere to play football (in the same league or lower) that isn't a success for that football club if they loose them is it?
I'd agree with you there, there wasn't the crux of my point, it was more an add on to the fact that they are producing better first teamers THE BEST AND ONLY WORTHWHILE GAUGE OF A TALENTED YOUTH SET UP and on top of that they produce more PL standard talent. So you cant really use "the league is littered with former Manchester United youth" can you? (and anyway I'd like to find if that is indeed true???) Manchester United only got them so far. Firstly see above, secondly see the roster for teams like Sunderland. For me, I have to look further down the league(s) to find a team that is bringing through the youth at there own club, and I'm looking at Crystal Palace and Birmingham, these are being more effective than the teams in the Premier League, but that doesn't mean that they are more talented, do they? Because they aren't producing PREMIER LEAGUE QUALITY TALENT. You've made a nothing point there. These clubs may have no other choice but to do what they do! Some of those clubs have budgets and constraints, which means they cant sign players like Premier League teams can, so in a way are forced to use the youth they have.
The best four examples of club teams being effective in bringing through there youth, aren't even in this country, they are Ajax, Barcelona, Valencia and Athletic Bilbao. That is a point I've already made to you buddy, but you are welcome to use my points, it just backs my opinions up for me.
...and they are still bringing through players till this day, UNLIKE the rest of the top European teams.
Absolutely, youth football in general isn't as good as when Liverpool and Utd were bringing through Scholes and Gerrard. But that doesn't really help your point in anyway as you can either call it a separate issue (the best thing you can do to avoid hanging your argument with your own words) or you are 'admitting' that bringing through players IS the gauge for talent. Either way, again its a good point, but irrelevant to the one you're trying to make.
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craney91
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craney91
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That is a point I've already made to you buddy, but you are welcome to use my points, it just backs my opinions up for me. 
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,679
Under 23 Player
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Under 23 Player
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,679 |
That is a point I've already made to you buddy, but you are welcome to use my points, it just backs my opinions up for me. 
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,163
1st Team Squad
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1st Team Squad
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,163 |
Said it ages ago when we played Everton resi's at Goodison, Sama can be special for us, and if we receive a good offer for Skrtel or Agger, Sama ideally would come into the side along with Coates, very complete modern defender. He gets overlooked because of the likes of Suso and Sterling, but I honestly think for a defender in todays football, he is one of the best young players we have. He has all the attributes and physical prowess to make it.
I got hounded on here for saying it though (what a surprise)
I also got hounded for saying that I believe Pacecho is good enough for our first team also. (what a surprise)
I also said before that I think there is 7 or 8 youth players that can come through into our first team. I got hounded for saying that to on here. (what a surprise)
When you look at Barca's model, the majority of players in the first team have come through the ranks to play at the top level, they were all given chances and they took those.
None of there players were special from day 1 of playing in the first team, they showed signs of course, but even Messi didn't become the player he is now, right away on day 1, but over a number of years playing in the first team, they are all special now.
I believe Sterling, Suso, Sama, Wisdom, Coady, Dunn, Morgan, Silva, Sinclair, Ibe (a bit to young) and now Texeira are all capable of coming through for us.
OOooooooohhh, well done you! IF you were hounded (and IF you did make those claims) it was probably because of your stinking attitude, constant threats to quit the forum, throwing your toys out of the pram and always playing the victim despite being such a hypocrite and starting the majority of arguments on here. Good day to you.
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 12,422
1st Team Regular
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1st Team Regular
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 12,422 |
Said it ages ago when we played Everton resi's at Goodison, Sama can be special for us, and if we receive a good offer for Skrtel or Agger, Sama ideally would come into the side along with Coates, very complete modern defender. He gets overlooked because of the likes of Suso and Sterling, but I honestly think for a defender in todays football, he is one of the best young players we have. He has all the attributes and physical prowess to make it.
I got hounded on here for saying it though (what a surprise)
I also got hounded for saying that I believe Pacecho is good enough for our first team also. (what a surprise)
I also said before that I think there is 7 or 8 youth players that can come through into our first team. I got hounded for saying that to on here. (what a surprise)
When you look at Barca's model, the majority of players in the first team have come through the ranks to play at the top level, they were all given chances and they took those.
None of there players were special from day 1 of playing in the first team, they showed signs of course, but even Messi didn't become the player he is now, right away on day 1, but over a number of years playing in the first team, they are all special now.
I believe Sterling, Suso, Sama, Wisdom, Coady, Dunn, Morgan, Silva, Sinclair, Ibe (a bit to young) and now Texeira are all capable of coming through for us.
OOooooooohhh, well done you! IF you were hounded (and IF you did make those claims) it was probably because of your stinking attitude, constant threats to quit the forum, throwing your toys out of the pram and always playing the victim despite being such a hypocrite and starting the majority of arguments on here. Good day to you. i see your trying to tell him in a satle (sp) way
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craney91
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craney91
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OOooooooohhh, well done you! IF you were hounded (and IF you did make those claims) it was probably because of your stinking attitude, constant threats to quit the forum, throwing your toys out of the pram and always playing the victim despite being such a hypocrite and starting the majority of arguments on here. Good day to you. Love it, love how I get under your skin, love how I keep making you come back, love how my posts always seem to encourage debate, love how the small minority keep coming back for more and more and more and more, I'm your drug, your heroin, you cant get enough, you need it, you need me punk! I can do what I want, when I want, whatever I like, I can say what I want, when I want, whatever I like. You can't stop me, you cant touch me, you cant beat me with words, but you try. This is the internet son, I can create 100 accounts on here if I wanted, and nobody would care a toss. I can do just what you do, no one can stop me because no one has stopped you or the other load of muppets on this forum. So keep coming, you know you want to, you know you can, this is the internet remember, the place where you escape, the place where you can do things and say things impossible for you to do in your own reality, you couldn't get your words out to that pretty little thing at the party, you was choked, on here as if by magic, they can flow like a river, unstoppable, relentless, just words, talk, mouth, chatter, noise, all of this from the comfort of your bunk bed, curled up underneath your power rangers quilt. Better call mommey for your milk and biscuits and your night nappy, your in your adult years and you still wet the bed at night. Thinking of me eh? None stop. 24/7. I'm in your dreams. Good. I've got you right where I want you. Your in my spiders web, my territory, if you beg, I MIGHT let you free.
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 6,262
1st Team Squad
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1st Team Squad
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 6,262 |
watch the tone mate or you may get a ban
yes you can disagree but don't make it too personal
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,869
Under 23 Player
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Under 23 Player
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,869 |
Bit off topic here but what about your fella Bueno? Is he meant to be joining this year?
I never finish anythi
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