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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 562
Under 18 Player
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Under 18 Player
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 562 |
I thought hed go to Atletico, and understand he was offered the job in the summer but didn't fancy the chaos off the field, although it would have been a cakewalk after THicks and Gullett!
Rafas decline coincided with his splitting with Paco, his man management was always his weakness, the similarities with Clough and Taylor are striking. I would ask you to look at Alex Ferguson's man management skills before questioning Rafa Benitez on the matter. Kicking boots at players head's,shipping out Europe's best centre half for writing a book,dropping expensive goalkeepers after one mistake dropping the clubs top scorer for talking to the press to name only a few. If players don't respect the club and don't do as they are told to do so then I am right behind a manager that doesn't tolerate them.
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 844
Under 18 Player
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Under 18 Player
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 844 |
Precisely different circumstances. With bad owners and limited funds, Rafa managed all that.
With good owners that back him up with funds, the results can only be better.
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 844
Under 18 Player
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Under 18 Player
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 844 |
I like my supposition over yours.
Rafa knows the club, staff and players. Much less bedding in required.
Someone totally new may never settle at all for all you know.
But that's just another supposition.
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,955
Under 23 Player
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Under 23 Player
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,955 |
I like my supposition over yours.
Rafa knows the club, staff and players. Much less bedding in required.
Someone totally new may never settle at all for all you know.
But that's just another supposition. ...and I completely disagree with you. The club has changed considerably since he left. There is no way to know that he'd settle in quickly. In fact, as stubborn as Rafa is I would suspect that he might struggle more than a new manager... since he has been in a position of power within the club before. As far as knowing the players... a few left because of him and a few more would have left had he stayed. There is just too much baggage there.. and it's a backward step in my opinion. I am very interested to find out who these players are that you speak of in relation to rafa staying or leaving. Which players did not get on with rafa, who left because of him?
I will listen, only if your answer contains wisdom
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 204
Under 16 Player
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Under 16 Player
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 204 |
Rafa spent plenty of money... bought a few good uns... and a load of pap too. You have to account for inflation in the game from season to season... so comparing budgets is a bit subjective at best. There is nothing to say that Rafa would have succeeded with last summer's transfer budget... and to suggest so is just wishful thinking. Who knows what Rafa would have bought.... Lastly, Rafa was spoiled for riches at treble winning Inter Milan and couldn't hack it. Since his days at Valencia he has won cups only... and has slowly regressed as a coach. All your nostalgia for Istanbul won't make him succeed where he has repeatedly failed. Sorry, but that's the way it is.
1) I know for sure that Rafa would have bought much better european pedigree if he had been given 100m last summer. Not carroll, henderson, adam. 2) He bought more good players than bad ones. And the sale of the good ones ensured that his nett spend over the 6 years in-charge was a measly 20m after the sale of torres. In that period, we reached giddy heights of european successes that others can only dream off. We were feared throughout europe. Everyone wanted to avoid us. He made the people happy once again. Don't tell me you were not proud to be a red fan in those 6 years under him? 3) He was given feck all to buy players at inter milan. All his targets were rejected by the board. 4) He didn't just win cups at valencia. He won league titles with them. Talk to any valencia fan and they still speak of rafa highly. 5) I want him back not because of istanbul nostalgia. I want him back because he knows how to win matches and out-think the opposition tactically. And of course I think he would be able to sign talented players worth their salt. Just look at the current side - Pepe, Lucas, Skrtel, Agger, Johnson, kuyt, maxi - were all his signings and they're still in the spine of the team. Did he really waste a lot of money on duds??? You can suppose all you like - but there's no guarantee that Rafa would have spent the money any better. Rafa was a great tactician in some matches - and a laughing stock in others. His man management was poor. His petulance and stubbornness grew to eclipse his strengths as a manager. He's had his time and failed to win the league. Simple as that. i think we are a laughing stock in most matches now...in case you did not watch
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,215
Under 23 Player
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Under 23 Player
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,215 |
Rafa spent plenty of money... bought a few good uns... and a load of pap too. You have to account for inflation in the game from season to season... so comparing budgets is a bit subjective at best. There is nothing to say that Rafa would have succeeded with last summer's transfer budget... and to suggest so is just wishful thinking. Who knows what Rafa would have bought.... Lastly, Rafa was spoiled for riches at treble winning Inter Milan and couldn't hack it. Since his days at Valencia he has won cups only... and has slowly regressed as a coach. All your nostalgia for Istanbul won't make him succeed where he has repeatedly failed. Sorry, but that's the way it is.
1) I know for sure that Rafa would have bought much better european pedigree if he had been given 100m last summer. Not carroll, henderson, adam. 2) He bought more good players than bad ones. And the sale of the good ones ensured that his nett spend over the 6 years in-charge was a measly 20m after the sale of torres. In that period, we reached giddy heights of european successes that others can only dream off. We were feared throughout europe. Everyone wanted to avoid us. He made the people happy once again. Don't tell me you were not proud to be a red fan in those 6 years under him? 3) He was given feck all to buy players at inter milan. All his targets were rejected by the board. 4) He didn't just win cups at valencia. He won league titles with them. Talk to any valencia fan and they still speak of rafa highly. 5) I want him back not because of istanbul nostalgia. I want him back because he knows how to win matches and out-think the opposition tactically. And of course I think he would be able to sign talented players worth their salt. Just look at the current side - Pepe, Lucas, Skrtel, Agger, Johnson, kuyt, maxi - were all his signings and they're still in the spine of the team. Did he really waste a lot of money on duds??? You can suppose all you like - but there's no guarantee that Rafa would have spent the money any better. Rafa was a great tactician in some matches - and a laughing stock in others. His man management was poor. His petulance and stubbornness grew to eclipse his strengths as a manager. He's had his time and failed to win the league. Simple as that. I'm not supposing all I like, KP. Can you honestly go through point by point and disagree with all of them? I'm talking facts, not supposition.
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,163
1st Team Squad
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1st Team Squad
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,163 |
Precisely different circumstances. With bad owners and limited funds, Rafa managed all that.
With good owners that back him up with funds, the results can only be better.
That's just supposition. Rafa could well struggle like he did at Inter. Remember - it only takes a few months until the doomsayers start plotting your demise... The Rafa era is over... move on. You keep coming out with this nonsense as if it's some kind of fan policy to start calling for the manager's head from the off. No one was calling for kenny's head after 6 months - he had done a decent job in getting us back into the top half with some good performances for a few months....but it's all gone downhill from there. We were in 6th place last january - 12 months after he began his spending spree is it right that we are lower down in the league!!!?? It is what the manager does within the first 12 months that matters - in Rafa's case that meant winning the champions league. In Kenny's case it means we are one bad result away from the bottom half of the table and in our worst run of form for 60 years thanks to his massively overpriced, useless players that have no chance of moving us forward! At least we've got a new kit deal though.
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,215
Under 23 Player
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Under 23 Player
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,215 |
1) I know for sure that Rafa would have bought much better european pedigree if he had been given 100m last summer. Not carroll, henderson, adam.
2) He bought more good players than bad ones. And the sale of the good ones ensured that his nett spend over the 6 years in-charge was a measly 20m after the sale of torres. In that period, we reached giddy heights of european successes that others can only dream off. We were feared throughout europe. Everyone wanted to avoid us. He made the people happy once again. Don't tell me you were not proud to be a red fan in those 6 years under him?
3) He was given feck all to buy players at inter milan. All his targets were rejected by the board.
4) He didn't just win cups at valencia. He won league titles with them. Talk to any valencia fan and they still speak of rafa highly.
5) I want him back not because of istanbul nostalgia. I want him back because he knows how to win matches and out-think the opposition tactically. And of course I think he would be able to sign talented players worth their salt. Just look at the current side - Pepe, Lucas, Skrtel, Agger, Johnson, kuyt, maxi - were all his signings and they're still in the spine of the team. Did he really waste a lot of money on duds???
You can suppose all you like - but there's no guarantee that Rafa would have spent the money any better. Rafa was a great tactician in some matches - and a laughing stock in others. His man management was poor. His petulance and stubbornness grew to eclipse his strengths as a manager. He's had his time and failed to win the league. Simple as that. I'm not supposing all I like, KP. Can you honestly go through point by point and disagree with all of them? I'm talking facts, not supposition. No you're not... you're projecting what you want to be the truth. The truth is not convenient for you at this time. Rafa is not the force he was... and the truth is - he failed in his main objective at Liverpool. Sorry KP, but the way you're avoiding my direct question isn't going to convince me of anything. I'm not projecting anything. I base my argument on facts, as do many fans out there who would love rafa back. Not because of the nostalgia of istanbul. But rather because we see something in him that you don't. Just answer me 3 simple questions: 1) Do you think Rafa would have bought better players than what KK/Comolli bought with 100m? 2) If Rafa had been properly backed in his 6 years in-charge like how KK has been backed by FSG, do you honestly think that we would not have won the league at least once - especially in 2009? 3) Do you think Rafa is a superior tactician of the game to KK? If your answer to all 3 questions are no, then I'd like to hear what you have to say in response. Look I'm not dissing KK for what he has done for us. Far from it. But rather, we're having a debate on who we think deserves the job as gaffer. And for rafa, I think he deserves a 2nd chance with proper backing to get things right.
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,381
Under 23 Player
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Under 23 Player
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,381 |
I'd like to take a crack at those questions mighty.
Yes I think rafa would have bought and brought in better players with the same money.
There is absolutely no reason to think Rafa WOULD undoubtedly have won had he been properly backed. Personally in the season we finished 2nd if he had the opportunity to buy a top striker in jan to supplement the squad then yes I do believe we would have won. But that certainly isn't fact, its actually far from it. Who knows if he would have bought the right player in. And we have seen teams like United raise their game based on their opponents. City have spent a lot more and arguably have a much better team sheet...United are still topping the league at the bussiness end of the season.
Yes I think Rafa is probably the better tactician, but I don't think Steve Clarke is that bad either mate. Kenny has had success as a manager, that isn't a fluke. A better question is has he got the tactics for the modern game? An interesting question because I would argue his buys suggest the way he sees football might be out dated.
So you have a mix of rafa over kenny answers there, I would say I think on the basis of the small amount of recent data I have for Kenny, Rafa seems to be the better modern manager. But I certainly wouldn't give Rafa the chance to manage us again. We have seen looking backwards doesn't work. We must look forwards and look for something new and fresh so teams haven't got us worked out right from the first game of the season.
I agree with KP that Rafa did fail in his main objective and maybe there are confounding variables that added to that, but Rafa got more than enough things wrong for me to think you are seeing him through rose tinted spectacles.
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,381
Under 23 Player
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Under 23 Player
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,381 |
1. Perhaps but not necessarily. Rafa wasted tons of money in his time.
2. Perhaps but not necessarily. Rafa's main problem is that he doesn't learn from his mistakes... he's too stubborn.
3. Perhaps but not necessarily. I like the way Kenny has got the team playing... I like pass and move... we just need some speed, width, and finishing to go with this philosophy and I think it will do well. I liked Rafa sometimes... but other times he perplexed me with playing players out of position, persisting with poor form players, and horrible substitutions.
So as you can see... the Rafa v Kenny thing is all 'ifs, ands, and buts' - purely hypothetical and suppositional. Different eras and different circumstances. Rafa failed in his main objective... the same thing you want to sack Kenny for. Rafa had lots of problems of his own making... just like Kenny.
Time to move on... Rafa's time at Liverpool is over... he's no longer a top manager. Sorry, but true. haha you managed sum that up much more concisely than me. I really can't understand the call for Rafa back. I am a huge rafa fan and actually didn't want him sacked when he did lose his job. But one of the biggest reasons people wanted him out is cause he lost the dressing room, is he suddenly gonna get that back on a return? I cannot see why people want to look backwards yet again.
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