KopTalk.com Forums Football Liverpool FC Forum My take on things

The most annoying thing we have to endure when results aren't going our way is the predictable conversations and debates that take place.

The Liverpool FC website wheels out the propaganda writers who tell us that last season we so very nearly won the league so we should remain calm. Then on the various internet forums we have two camps of supporters. One camp will tell you that Rafa Benitez is finished, the other camp will tell you he hasn't even just begun.

I try to stay in the reality camp. Statistics bore me to deaith and mean absolutely nothing. They exist purely to back up someone's lame attempt to win some brownie points against their opposition. The only table that matters is the current league table.

I don't care how much has been spent because I'm intelligent enough to understand that we've also recouped a lot of money on sales. We're told by one camp that Rafa can't spend wisely yet the other camp points out the great deals that Rafa has pulled off. Next they debate the not so expensive buys and say this is where Rafa fails yet to me that's another non-starter because Rafa has also brought in some bargains.

We beat Manchester United and out come the pro-Rafa camp to bait the non-believers who remain silent. The following week we lose to Fulham and it's the reverse. You see to me we beat United because our players were up for it more. It was a home game and the atmosphere was lightning as usual when playing a team that the fans must see slaughtered. Fulham was an away game and our squad was missing key players. Nobody can argue against that. But any realist can argue that Rafa makes bizarre substitutions.

Fernando Torres and Yossi Benayoun were unhappy about coming off but I can totally understand why Rafa decided to take off Torres. I know we were chasing the game but pushing him too hard when not fit could result in a disaster. But can we support the substitution of Yossi? I think not.

Should we replace Rafa? I have two viewpoints. One side of me says yes because I can't see him taking this squad any further but who could realistically come in and make a difference with the same financial limitations and what players would want to leave as a result of a change in manager? The other side of me says no because he has not been supported fully by the board but we cannot continue to blame the American owners for everything.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing so we should try to avoid it when judging. But once it's clear someone like Voronin is [oops], why continue with him? I'd rather see a 16-year-old rookie getting knocked all over the place than the leading male character from 'Debby Does Dallas'. He will never be a good player for as long as he has a hole in arse and don't even get me started on Mr Negative Energy Ryan Babel on Twitter? Twit? More like [oops]! I've had little time for inconsistent performers in the past but at least people like Vladimir Smicer gave his all for the cause. I feel ashamed of myself for sticking the knife so bluntly into these two muppets but I'll take the criticism on my chins, I'm used to it.

Despite Rafa's mistakes you have to be honest and say if he was allowed to sign his preferred targets, we would be challenging for the league. You see I'm a fan of Jose Mourinho but could he work to the limitations that Rafa has to? I don't think he could and he'd have even more spats with the owners.

If Rafa did leave during the season, and as I said before any of this started, I'd be suprised to see him at Anfield in August 2010 unless he wins the European Cup, then I'd be happy to see Kenny Dalglish brought in alongside Sammy Lee for at least the short term. But the sad reality is, without a change in ownership, would anyone else do a better job?

That's the thing, none of us really have the answers. It's easy to call for him to be sacked but it's not that simple is it so unless you have the answers, which I am sure you don't, lighten up on calls to axe the man.

Do you want to know where I stand? If I'm honest I don't know. I don't know what the answers are and because of that reason alone, I say we just hold tight and stick together for the rest of the season.

I still have faith in the manager and although he annoys me at times, it's the anti and pro Rafa camps that annoy me more with their one-sided agendas and if someone starts quoting statistics to prove a point, tell them you don't give a flying **** and that the only thing matters is that our rivals are notching up more and more trophies each season.

I may have faith but it's not me who decides the future. I said a month or two back that this was the beginning of the end for Rafa followng claims that the dressing room was unhappy. A win against Manchester United and I was told my information was duff. I stand by what I said but you know what, I hope my info was duff. If Rafa can turn this around and win more time, it doesn't mean what I said was duff, I'm just one of many messengers. But it would mean that the man we all should want to see succeed has shown great managerial skills by bouncing back.

We're going to get beat with porno and rap stars in the team so if we're going to go down fighting, at least give the kids some time in place of them so that we as fans can see some real hunger and desire in their eyes.

'In Rafa we trust'? My arse! Rafa needs to motivate the players he has available and those who expect miracles when we have so many injuries need to grow the **** up.

nicely put! i think rafas approach to players is to cold and distant therefore making it difficult to motivate them or pick them up when there down

yes he has bought some bangers alright

i remember when houllier was near his end and the same with souness and even evans. it was in no doubt that their time was up. but with raffa there is doubts, even our megre poll that we took on this forum shows divide. if there is doubt then there is also hope. i have to say, its one thing to see people posting comments that are excessively positive, that doesnt serve much of a purpose, but i cant understand the mentality of people who are intent on sh*ting on everything about the club at the moment.
have a bit of heart, courage and faith in what we have at at preesent because that is all we have. if the time comes for raffa to go then it will come, either next week or ten years, but until them get up of your back sides and support your team a little more because some people dont sound like supporters at all lately.
slate me for saying that if you wish, but its times like these that were supposed to be rallying, once there is hope. the team is taking a bashing from the press, and other supporters, especially the scum, who are doing a jig at the thought of the sinking lfc ship. get behind your club. We are all aware of the problems, dont become another one.

nice post dunk...

this is a very confusing situation because we don't know whats best for the club right now. get rid of rafa or give him our support?

just like you described i also feel like i'm divided in this question. on one hand i'm sick and tired of many things with rafa, his stubbornness, his substitution policy, picking players like voronin, babel and kyrgiakos over promising kids like pacheco, ayala and nemeth...the list goes on...

but on the other hand he has taken us far if you compare with the team he took over 2004. okey, we haven't won the league yet but we've reached semi-finals and finals in cl almost every year since he came here, something houllier never even managed once...
and he has built this team without any real backing from the owners. many of the players in todays squad has been his 2nd or 3rd choice on the transfer market...

and the real question is like you said, who would to a better job under these circumstances? i don't think mourinho, hiddink or anyone else would mean a garantead improvement...

i can understand what you are saying ..... but i think rafa's stupidity in putting europe ahead of the league every single season cost us the league last season and this season it is destroying us

if, after 5 years at the club, he still can't see just how much the prem means to liverpool fans than he has to go - that is what has lost my support for him

i don't believe it would cost 20m - that's just guesswork and i am sure the yanks would have built in clauses ie if we go out the champions league in the group stages i bet that reduces the amount owed

a few points i would like to add,we bought kyut who was a striker
we bought babel who was a striker, we have nameth and pecheco who r banging in goals week in week out, what manager would persist with veronin and for what reason, how can you play strikers on the wing and over look two young strikers doing the business, finally when playing at home and we need a win whats with the one striker up front, defensive football, negative tactics and not being able to man manage players properly is the problem with rafa, example martin oneill, basement bargain buyer but can get the best out of a wooden spoon if he tried, enuf said

good post dunk.although there are the pro and anti Rafa camps at the moment all L.F.C fans are united in the thinking that we all want to see him succeed as this would mean a succesful club for us to support.
i also agree with your view that stats are just a stick to beat each other with or to prove a point.
we all talk about good or bad signings that can make or break a manager,which they do but there is also the coaching side.a coach or a managers job is also to improve players and also to motivate them,Rafa didn't need to motivate the team when we were playing the mancs but he certainly did when it comes to playing the likes of Fulham or Sunderland.
and although i can see the idea when he makes substitutions like he did against Fulham if the replacement is not good enough to go and get a result we have problems.
i think you a right to point out that he has lost the dressing room i dont think they agree with the tactics he uses,zonal marking being an example and this is not a new tactic its been plaguing us for a few seasons now.
going back to the players he has signed that has some of us fuming its also the players he has let go.i think he did well with the Alonso saga he had no choice but should he have let Crouch,riise or even Murphy go to name just a few,i would have all 3 of those players in our team right now.
i think i may be the only person who has some sympathy with Babel aswell,although his attitude does stink right now i think its as a result of Rafa'a attitude towards him we could all see the potential he had when he joined us but he has been dropped and played out of position so many times i think he has lost his fight.Van basten knew what a hugley talented player we had signed when we got him but now he is a shadow of that player and i think Rafa has alot to do with that.
i really hope Rafa does turn it around and prove me wrong but i get the feeling he is not the man for us.

We will never win the Prem with Rafa. We are a cup team, a team he can get fired up for a one off game. Should he be fired right now? I don"t know the answer to that question. This is the confusion most of us are feeling. This is what makes the present situation so difficult to stand.