KopTalk.com Forums Football Liverpool FC Forum Racism, discrimination and the F.A. and Sky

Avail - thank you for your post very well argued but I am afraid I still don't agree. There was another option in your scenario that of using common sense and judgement. A malicious racist allegation like a malicious rape allegation causes harm and damages the impact when the real crime occurs. So its about applying common sense not auto response black guy good white guy bad. Which is what we have now and it will lead to no end of trouble which it is doing.

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Another point I would make against your scanario of the american football tackle is that it assumes one person is pure white and one person black. In that scenario its simple the white guy is always the bad guy. Ok I don't think thats fair but I can grasp it. But what happens if rather than white the bad guy is mexican or of mixed race or asian or Arab etc. Does that mean its not as bad ? Do we have a sliding scale based on skin colour? Believe it or not black people can (and are) racist to white people. Is that to be ignored ? or does that count too? You cannot base laws on the colour of peoples skin its should should be one law for all applied equally.

i think we're talking about two different cases here.

ok terry hasn't been prosecuted but we can all read what he said from the youtube clip. he is innocent until proven guilty of course but it's inevitable when he's been caught, so blatantly on camera that he will be prosecuted. anton ferdidnand hasn't blown it up at all and has proceeded with dignity in this whole thing and i think we should respect that cos it must have been difficult for him not to punch terry on the nose. the case, having been reported by a member of the public, will be a crimina prosecution (with the likelihood of an FA enquiry with lengthy ban to ensue). i think common sense will apply here though the case should have been heard by now (it has been botched by the uk justice system and in turn the FA). i personally think it's wrong to call someone "a black c**t". some in here don't agree but i think it's direct racism. it's abusive...and, if fact, saying in here directly to another poster would get you banned from the forum.

the second case, suarez-evra is different. nobody has said that he is a racist man. that he's about to wear a white robe and start burning churches or randomly beating up blacks and asians in the street. the accusation is about something more subtle than that. first off, the FA have a history of making an absolute balls of important things, and gave me little confidence in their ability to caution suarez or evra. they made a balls of it in this because, even after the internationalisation of the premiership, they have failed to issue a list of racist terms or phrases that cannot be used from one to another. before this trial if i had seen the word 'negrito' i would have assumed it was racist. but i'm not from south america. but from doing a little bit of research, i can see that in south america it can range from a term of affection to a direct insult (depending on the context). i' still unsure as to how suarez intended it, though i don't think, after evra had insulted suarez sister that, he was exacltly trying to make friends with evra (fair enough). the court was a shambles but it could have gained some credibility if it had dealt with both players i.e. by handing out an 8 game ban for racist language (as the tribunal saw it), surely a 3 game ban for evra for his part in abusing suarez family would have been at least in some way fair. but it didn't happen.

i think, by the FA's hand, this has opened up a can of worms about it victimising suarez and being heavily under the influence of the mancs. it paved the way for people to accuse evra, ferguson and mufc of influencing the whole thing.

however, saying that is like saying that fergie has influenced lfc's thoughts on whether we transfer suarez at the end of the season. he gave his opinion but the decision is up to lfc and lfc only.

i think the real failure has been the FA in this. i think they have been shambolic to be honest. i think they have been shambolic in the terry saga. and they were shambolic in their treatment of capello. they have hung lfc and suarez out to dry and left themselve open to criticism but how many people are on here looking for blood from them? it seems that more are accusative of the mancs and the media and general society.

Drome I think you make some good points particularly about the ambiguity around racism not just in football but generally. It is a can of worms and simplistic notions have lead to a whole lot of trouble. I think we can all agree that calling someone a black c*nt is wrong but how about white c*unt ? most people might say bad but not as bad? Why? People might say because of historical aspects. But if you examine here again it’s not clearly cut either white people have oppressed black people but then the reverse is also true (Barbary Slaves) and black people have oppressed other black people and in Africa / central Asia this cheerfully goes on to this day. So there are no good and bad and certainly not based on peoples skin colour we are all good / bad in the same measure from what I can see. What I think really gets peoples back up is the hypocrisy and double standards in our society today many white people in the media and politics have lost their careers because of perceived racist comments whereas black people such as Diane Abbot or black rap stars make racist comments time after time and are never sanctioned cover it. As for the Terry incident maybe I am not as good as lip reading as you but what I saw was two blokes having a row and on the clip Ferdinand is giving it out also. Yet he is entirely 100% the innocent how come ? Does he also not have a responsibility? or because he is black is he deemed to be helpless and oppressed as opposed to being an adult and a professional?

The whole thing is nuts.

sorry prophet but this thread is about rasicm. whether rooney hangs out in slums in africa proves absolutely nothing. i don't hango out in slums in africa and i don't consider myself a racist. i'm sure there are many non-racists who have also managed the enormous feet of managing of both not being racist and not spending time in slums with the kids.

but you're dead right about evra, he should have received a ban. and you're right about the press. a player being found guilty of racism (even though it was a very dubious process by the FA) is 'sexy' news. it sells papers. the fact that its the biggest clubs in england in one of the biggest games in world football, just sells even more papers. the media couldn't really give a rats ass who or what sells papers or increase viewership for them.

i still maintain my line with this though. not completely, but generally, on this forum and through the media in general it has become an lfc v mufc issue. but its much wider than that, it's about FA. they had an opportunity to provide fairness, equality and justice not just on racism either...but on all matters of equality. not just to lfc nor just to mufc but to all players irreespective of race, colour, religion, sexual preference, political belief or anything. they had a chance to send out a message to all players, all clubs, the sports media and society in general to say that they would not tolerate racist terms but they would tolerate abuse of people's families either. but they [oops] it up. if people are going to direct their anger, i just understand how it's not all directed at the FA.

i want to make it clear now so i don't have to repeat. racism in all of its forms, no matter who it is (white, black, jewish, christian, muslim...i couldn't give a [oops] who it is) is absolutely abhorrent. ok done.

if anton ferdinand did wind terry up (be it a racial slur or to say something about his sister), then he needs to be dealt with by the same rules and same punishment. the difference is that the video evidence is overwhelming against terry. i think its undeniable. if/when some from of evidence (in terms of testimonial or video) emerges against ferdinand, then i will make a call on the basis of that evidence (not on the basis of his skin colour or because of history) but, not to get too cheesey about it, but on the content of character rather than colour of skin.

i, have, as you will have noticed, advocated punishment of evra throughout this. i have also been heavily criticial of the FA as the admission of what he said about suarez sister was on record at their tribunal and they STILL did nothing about it. what i can make out is what you have been arguing for all through this is justice. and its the FA who failed in this.

Drome it appears we are on the same wavelength on this.

no way stan. f**k you! (joke)

i think the point you make is overly damning of the mancs place in all of this. when you make your point, sometimes i think it's made on the borders of making this an LFC v MUFC situation, which it's not.

fergie's recent posturing about racism is, of course, a superficial contribution to the very serious area of rasicm. i think whether he's saying it as a jab at LFC/sycophantic PR soundbite/surface level protest at racism, he's not taking it seriously himself but then i don't think LFC did either.

i do think think its every clubs responsibility to combat racism but i don't think it's up to fergie to lead the charge. his sole repsonsibility is to his club. so if he defends his players and attacks LFC, as much as it irks me, he's mainly fulfilling a job.

the most salient point in all of this is that the issue of rasicm is not being led properly by the FA. the press never have and never will lead a campaign of educating people about rasicm or bigotry, nor will they. it's not their remit. all they want to do is to shift copy. the only party in this capable of doing what your posts aspire to is the FA. i think their decision making on this has paved the way for the circus we have witnessed in the past few weeks which has led to an LFC v MUFC situation. and i just think that's a bit crass when you look at the gravity of racism.

Drome I think you are overplaying racism it’s a political label used by pressure group’s or individuals to advance their cause. Firstly what is racism ? without cutting and pasting from Wikipedia can you define it yourself? It can be anywhere from the holocaust to a casual insult. It can also be black against white white against black or any combination thereof. We have also seen how in the FA hierarchy its higher than sexism that seems illogical to me. Its all politics and individuals using as a weapon rather than serious racism.