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Originally Posted By: thundyr
[quote=Stanley Park]So I guess, on average (since the Carling Cup is only worth winning for bragging rights at having actually won something) we're no better than we were at the worst point in the last 8 years (discounting Hodgson's half a season of relegation form). Given that we've let go of essentially every player from that era that the fans did not like and has not since come good (with the except of Aurelio and I guess Kuyt and Maxi), and have brought in a wealth of talented British youngsters on the back of the Torres transfer fee, one would think we'd somehow be doing a bit better.

That season we finished on 63 points - exactly the target based on points per game at the 24 match mark. Spurs qualified for the CL in 4th on 70, which again is what I expect the fourth place finisher to need. We need to improve and it needs to happen fast. Think about it: another 30 points is either W10 L4 or W9 D3 L2. And that extra 30 points might not be enough if the losses are against our rivals. I hardly think that we're going to go from P24 W10 D8 L6 to the form required by P14 W10 L4 suddenly.

It seems clear to me that despite all the bickering in a dressing room lost to the manager, the naysayers in the crowd, the worst squad in memory, and the money-grabbers at the top, Benitez was a damn fine manager to be doing a job on the same level as Dalglish is now without any of those negatives.


But thats where Kenny picked us up from so how can we discount that?If we had beaten the spuds the other night this thread would not exist.Remember it took city £300m and two seasons to get into the top 4,Benitez is a fantastic manager but spurs and city were not the force they are now in his tenure.

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Didn't know that it was that bad really.

What strikes me though is how efficient we must have been back then. Didn't attack much but scored when we got the chance.

As it is now we often have a lot of possession, but almost never score!

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Originally Posted By: andy caroll
Liverpool made a mistake not appointing Martin O'Neill when they had the chance wat you guys think about this??


For me, Dalglish and O'Neill are both managers with good motivational skills. The difference is dalglish plays pass and move football.

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Originally Posted By: Kane
But thats where Kenny picked us up from so how can we discount that?If we had beaten the spuds the other night this thread would not exist.Remember it took city £300m and two seasons to get into the top 4,Benitez is a fantastic manager but spurs and city were not the force they are now in his tenure.


"Picked us up" is questionable, and that's the point. Got us not quite back to where we were in a season that cost our manager his job with what is now apparently a much better squad is what I can see. The Carling Cup should not be enough to save the manager if we finish 7th despite being allowed to make wholesale changes to the squad, including buying a surplus of players for high transfer fees because they were British and had experience in the league. Unless Downing, Carroll, and Adam come good (looking increasingly unlikely for the ones costing less than 30m pounds) this may prove to have been unwise.

It took City two seasons and 300m pounds (and two managers) to get from outside the EL places into the CL. Yes. With a team that had originally been well out of the CL places basically since the EPL began. City was not a club that had just qualified for the CL for 5 consecutive seasons, winning it once and being runner-up once. One shouldn't need ANOTHER 225m pounds after losing 2 world class players (Alonso and Torres, recouping 75m) just to remain in the top 4 surely?

The point about Benitez is that every positive in Dalglish's reign was a massive negative during his final season, a burden. Dalglish didn't even have to contend with Torres sulking - he sold him instead. And yet on the log we are still worse despite having almost 2/3rds of a season to gel. I'm not saying everything was coming up roses for Kenny, because we were 12th when he took over, but the fact remains that he needed to have us push on from last season - when if anything we've regressed (in terms of results - the most important stat). Yes, we play (arguably) better football than in 09/10, create more chances, concede fewer goals (21 as opposed to 26 at this stage in that season from Benitez), and generally dominate each game, but critically we've only scored 28 goals to the 42 under Benitez (a man criticised for defensive tactics). 42 goals after 24 matches is hardly stellar either, but at least it was on a par with our positional rivals of the day.

I believe we're on the path to improving fortunes, something shown by our ability to be the worse side on only very few occasions, but we have to start turning that into results if we're to take major positives from this season. It's not something that will happen overnight without any major changes (new signings, form players returning from injury/suspension, new tactics etc). The only difference now is that Suarez is back, our key player but the one most guilty of squandering our best chances. The only thing we can hope is that Gerrard, Bellamy, and Suarez can create some magic between now and the end of the season.

The operative word here is "hope". Prior to Suarez's suspension, Gerrard was the only missing element, and I'm yet to see evidence game-for-game that Gerrard's presence is the thing we were missing. Maybe Dalglish is permitted to to take 2 seasons to get us back into the CL given how much change we had to make to the squad, but given that John Henry wants to win the EPL title within the next 2 seasons such slow progress seems unacceptable even to him.

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Don't get this O'niell playing negative football I just think he plays the football that suits his squad, I thought villa played some good stuff under him and young milner and downing have all him to thank for the spring board to going to the top clubs

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O'Neill is a top manager. However I said that about Roy Hodgson and look what he did for us


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I have always backed Kenny but at times he does frustrate me with his team selection and stupid interviews. If we fail to reach the top 4 season then Kenny deserves to go in my opinion. I think we need a modern day manager who has won things, such as Guus Hiddink


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Originally Posted By: SWoolseyLFC
I have always backed Kenny but at times he does frustrate me with his team selection and stupid interviews. If we fail to reach the top 4 season then Kenny deserves to go in my opinion. I think we need a modern day manager who has won things, such as Guus Hiddink


I'd take Ancellotti if he was available. Came within a whisker of winning the title with a squad creaking at the joints after having his assistant manager fired by the club owner. Never mind that he's won the EPL as recently as 2 seasons ago.

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Martin O'Neil wasn't available when we needed a manager, he was apparently happy at Villa.

Had he left before we appointed Roy we would have probably had him, yes he is a good manager but he hasn't won anything of importance so who can say he would do any better than Kenny

Last edited by YNWA1892; 10/02/12 03:07 PM.
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Thanks, Stanley. smile

Dalglish is who we needed at the end of Hodgson's reign. I think everyone can agree on that (though perhaps not the most jaded of fans from the 90s), and his results proved the point.

But it's not 2011 any more. Now we have a new task, one that is starting to slip outside our ability to complete. We said it last season - we had no pressure to perform because any points we earned in a game were more than we would have got under Uncle Roy. This season there is pressure to finish in the CL, and we inadvertently added to that pressure by putting lots of money on British players who caught the statistician's eye the previous season. We've also played the media poorly with our various stances, from extra TV money to the never-ending stadium debate to Luis Suarez.

And quite frankly we're just not standing up to that pressure. Kenny's doing ok, but we aren't trying to do ok. We're trying to do better than that. I don't think Kenny should go - definitely not now, and probably not until he can create some kind of continuity ala the Liverpool of old (Shankley-Paisley-Fagan-Dalglish), but I'm not sure that his results will be good enough to keep him in the post that long. Maybe were he allowed 7 seasons to build a squad the way Fergie did, but it's not 1982 any more either. Last season the average length of a manager's tenure at a club in the EPL (removing Fergie, Wenger and Moyes from the mix) was less than 2 seasons. Kenny may turn out to be no more than another such statistic.

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