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thundyr
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thundyr
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Arsenal have lost Fabregas, Clichy and Nasri. The replacements for those aren't as good, so they're weaker this season. We've invested heavily, so we should be stronger. Just to play devil's advocate here, Fabregas played about half the season, and Clichy is hardly amazing. They still finished 4th despite an implosion of epic proportions after losing the Carling Cup final. So losing these 3 players should not have affected them so adversely that they should be strictly worse than the club that struggled into 7th and then 6th, 100m pounds or no. We can all see that 100m pounds doesn't buy much anyway, not unless you're willing to pay 200k per week or more on wages while guaranteeing CL qualification as well. Spurs struck gold with Adebayor, a player who has been largely unimpressive since he left Arsenal, and they didn't even need to buy him. So it's not always about the transfer fee, something that a lot of people easily overlook.
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thundyr
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thundyr
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I expect 4th, myself, Rafa.  As for Adebayor, why join us from Real rather than a London club at least in Europe (in some form) for whatever his ridiculous wages are? You can make a case for Parker, but I doubt he was on Kenny's radar because Lucas is better and younger. And if we're comparing managers, then Redknapp took Spurs from the bottom of the table in mid-December to the CL the following season with no budget whatsoever. Not the best manager in the world, no, but good enough for the EPL certainly.
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thundyr
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thundyr
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My only response to that is that Dalglish sold our second best player, and the best has started 7 times in almost a year and doesn't seem likely to play until 2012. Do the same for Spurs without Modric and, say, King, and Spurs would struggle at least as much as we have, Redknapp or not. I respect ol' 'Arry, but I'd still take Dalglish over him.
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,416
Moderator
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Moderator
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,416 |
Think we need a visit from this guy for a few lads on here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzZaupqKCj8
"Romance has broke down
This boy is crack'in up"
So not a moderator
Valar Morghulis
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,552
1st Team Squad
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1st Team Squad
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,552 |
Its is so unreasonable to want Kenny out if there is no top 4. It just doesn't make any sense. It's perfectly reasonable. Look at liverpool for the past 10 years or so. The only times lower than 4 have been deemed acceptable for us is when we have achieved something spectacular, like winning the champions league. All other seasons would result in the manager getting sacked either that year or the next. Nothing unreasonable. Those are the standards for the past decade. And I think Henry's standards are higher. He's certainly spent more, and should expect more. Out of 4 teams (Ourselves, Spurs, Chelsea & Arsenal), only 2 of these will get Champions League football. Spurs are looking most likely to get 3rd, which means only 1 of the other 3 will get a CL place. So by your logic, only one of Kenny Dalglish, Arsene Wenger and Andre Villas-Boas should keep their job past the summer? People need to stop living in the past. There's always been a 'big four' of Ourselves, Man Ure, Arsenal & Chelsea. There's no longer a big four, because Spurs and City have become big forces, meaning there's now a big six. This is the way it is now, and people need to get that into their skulls and accept it - gone are the days when top four is a gimme. This spoiled brat mentality of a portion of our fans needs to end. I don't agree at all that Kenny should be sacked if we fail to finish top four, and I think it's pathetic to suggest so. I'm not saying he should be kept on regardless, but it shouldn't be on the grounds of the finishing place in the table. There are more crucial factors that he should be judged on.
*RODGERS *SKRTEL *JONJO
'Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?'
'If there is hope, it lies in the proles'
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,365
Under 23 Player
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Under 23 Player
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,365 |
First, I'm not writing off Kenny yet, he can still get 4th, I'm just arguing that we should expect 4th.
Lets do each case separately then Thundyr. Spurs finished 4points ahead of us last year. In terms of transfers, out went Crouch, Palacios, Hutton, Keaneto gain over 20million, in came Parker at a cost of 5m, and in came Adebayor on loan for no cost (have I forgotten anyone?). So they've recouped about 15m, which should make their team worse than it was. We on the other hand, have spent about 40million net or so, one of the highest spenders in the league and you'd expect a decent improvement from that.
Spurs had champions league which was a distraction, we had Europa league, ownership takeover, Hodgson mess, so we had at least as much distraction as they did.
We're currently 5 points behind and they have a game in hand, so we've lost a lot (if you extend the form out to a whole season, you're talking about mroe than 10 points with 2 games in hand, lol) of ground on them despite what I've discussed above
'So far' you could only conclude, that Redknapp has done a much better job than Kenny. It's not as if Adebayor or Parker were signings that were impossible for us, is it?
Arsenal, lost 3 key players. Whether you rate Clichy or not, he was a solid first teamer. Fabregas out for half a season sure, but we had Hodgson for half a season. Add in all that mess we had I mentioned above too. Arsenal recouped millions too I believe, and so should be weaker.
With Arsenal you could argue that they finished 10 points ahead of us, and that's a lot to catch up in one season. Fine, I think that's a valid point. But under kenny, we had top 4 form, so we matched Arsenal's form under Kenny. Since then, they should have weakened, and we shoudl have become stronger, so should finish ahead of them.
Unless you think that our top 4 form under Kenny was down to Kenny's brilliance. But if he's great at his job, why has the gap with Spurs been increased, when it should have been reduced? Are we saying that Kenny is better than Wenger, but Redknapp is significantly better than both of them. Something doesn't sound right there.
The Arsenal one is a bit debatable I suppose, but the Spurs one is more damning. If Kenny doesn't get top 4, and Spurs finish above us, then it tells me that Redknapp can do better on a budget of -15million, than Kenny can do on +40million. And I don't think Redknapp is a manager in the league of Ferguson or Mourinho, and therefore, why keep Kenny if he's so inferior to a manager like Redknapp who isn't one of the best managers in the world? all very valid points, Although I think the introduction of 1 or 2 good players into a decent team like spurs have done is easier to integrate and gel rather than 7 new players like Liverpool have had to do. We have improved month by month over the season so far and I personally feel we will be able to match Spurs by the end of the season. The loss of gerrard has been massive and probably would account for our lack of quality in the final 3rd. I have no doubt in my mind that the gap between Liverpool/Arsenal/Spurs/Chelsea will be no more than 4/5points by the end of the season- whcih order i don't know. I also see United dropping points and may drop into the pack, although unlikely. 72+points will be required for 4th this season, a far larger than normal total. last ten games gives us an average of 1.9 pts/game vs season average of 1.81. The next 10games we need to get to 2pts/game to be serious challengers.
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Under 23 Player
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Under 23 Player
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306 |
why doesnt he go and join a utd forum and belittle liverpool in every post, he would be a hero for them. just a sad life hes leading i guess, theres no reasoning with the guy. he obviously just gonna keep coming back because hes been banned more times than i can remember. i would nt mind if he had other points of view but its just the same jibberish over and over. well you belittle liverpool you dont want liverpool to win cups , and abuse people who want liverpool to win cups and have success . get over it faz, you little girl
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Under 23 Player
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Under 23 Player
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306 |
Its is so unreasonable to want Kenny out if there is no top 4. It just doesn't make any sense. It's perfectly reasonable. Look at liverpool for the past 10 years or so. The only times lower than 4 have been deemed acceptable for us is when we have achieved something spectacular, like winning the champions league. All other seasons would result in the manager getting sacked either that year or the next. Nothing unreasonable. Those are the standards for the past decade. And I think Henry's standards are higher. He's certainly spent more, and should expect more. Out of 4 teams (Ourselves, Spurs, Chelsea & Arsenal), only 2 of these will get Champions League football. Spurs are looking most likely to get 3rd, which means only 1 of the other 3 will get a CL place. So by your logic, only one of Kenny Dalglish, Arsene Wenger and Andre Villas-Boas should keep their job past the summer? People need to stop living in the past. There's always been a 'big four' of Ourselves, Man Ure, Arsenal & Chelsea. There's no longer a big four, because Spurs and City have become big forces, meaning there's now a big six. This is the way it is now, and people need to get that into their skulls and accept it - gone are the days when top four is a gimme. This spoiled brat mentality of a portion of our fans needs to end. I don't agree at all that Kenny should be sacked if we fail to finish top four, and I think it's pathetic to suggest so. I'm not saying he should be kept on regardless, but it shouldn't be on the grounds of the finishing place in the table. There are more crucial factors that he should be judged on. well put bar, agree with all of that.
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 320
Under 16 Player
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Under 16 Player
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 320 |
The bottom line is we should be alot better off with the money spent than we are. I quite like the defence of Agger, Skirtel, and Enrique and although I would rather have Kelly any day of the week over Johnson it still looks decent. I think the big problems we have are in midfield and forward positions this coming summer, Maxi and Bellamy our best players will be another year closer to hanging up there boots, Kuyt not far behind, Gerrard probably finished due to injury problems, Henderson and Downing completely out of there depth and could quite possibly be moved on and up front if a decent offer comes in for Carroll it will be accepted and Suarez will be off anyway most likely the season after. All this shows me that we face even more turmoil and transition in the year ahead and with the uncertainty of a manager who has a history of losing the plot when under pressure spending the money it does'nt bode well.
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,595
1st Team Squad
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1st Team Squad
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,595 |
Its is so unreasonable to want Kenny out if there is no top 4. It just doesn't make any sense. It's perfectly reasonable. Look at liverpool for the past 10 years or so. The only times lower than 4 have been deemed acceptable for us is when we have achieved something spectacular, like winning the champions league. All other seasons would result in the manager getting sacked either that year or the next. Nothing unreasonable. Those are the standards for the past decade. And I think Henry's standards are higher. He's certainly spent more, and should expect more. Out of 4 teams (Ourselves, Spurs, Chelsea & Arsenal), only 2 of these will get Champions League football. Spurs are looking most likely to get 3rd, which means only 1 of the other 3 will get a CL place. So by your logic, only one of Kenny Dalglish, Arsene Wenger and Andre Villas-Boas should keep their job past the summer? People need to stop living in the past. There's always been a 'big four' of Ourselves, Man Ure, Arsenal & Chelsea. There's no longer a big four, because Spurs and City have become big forces, meaning there's now a big six. This is the way it is now, and people need to get that into their skulls and accept it - gone are the days when top four is a gimme. This spoiled brat mentality of a portion of our fans needs to end. I don't agree at all that Kenny should be sacked if we fail to finish top four, and I think it's pathetic to suggest so. I'm not saying he should be kept on regardless, but it shouldn't be on the grounds of the finishing place in the table. There are more crucial factors that he should be judged on. well put bar, agree with all of that. + 1... I think it's scandalous to be talking about sacking the manager and making spurious arguments with flawed logic to support such treachery and sedition at this point in our first seasons rebuild. Even if we don't make top 4 this season Kenny is doing well and John Henry and Co. will be smart enough to give him time to complete the rebuild and bring us forward. anyone who wants to be considered a fan of LFC should get behind the project and leave the silly bitching at the door at least until the end of the current campaign.
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