KopTalk.com Forums Football Liverpool FC Forum What do Liverpool fans want ?

CarheeX, I'll save you the trouble of thinking too hard. You have only 2 possible replies to my last post.
1. Roy is better because he lost fewer of his first 16 games. This only applies if you're a mid to bottom table manager. If you're at the top the most important thing is the percentage of games won. By your argument here, Rafa was the best manager in the league in 08/09 because we only lost 2, yet we failed to win the title. Why? Because Man U won more games than we did. Simple. Ask Mark Hughes how drawing every other game is working out for Fulham this season. Answer: not good enough to get out of mid-table. KD > RH, because wins are more important.
2. Their results are fairly similar. True. But then one must look at the relative quality of their opposition during those 16 games. I've already explained this point in a previous post - Kenny's similar record is against more teams of higher quality, therefore KD > RH.

You cannot take their results over the "first 16" games chronologically and find Roy as the better manager via any argument.

If you compare apples with apples - Europe vs Europe, EPL vs EPL, and ignore those pathetic qualifiers that tilt the scale only to blind you, we find EL is moderately in Roy's favour, while the EPL is significantly in KD's favour. So again, KD > RH.

The basis for your argument is heavily flawed.

Add that to Roy's inability to hold coherent press conferences, his woeful handling of the transfer window, his senseless lashing out at the fans, his ridicule of our own players, his failure to stand up for our players when criticized by other managers, and that vacuous smile at David Moyes after his utopian team had comprehensively outplayed us to leave us in the relegation zone with a quarter of the season gone, and you have a man who will never stay in his position long.

Oh, the point that Lumbar was making about the form table is true, though largely overlooked, since many don't think a manager should be judged solely on his performance in the EPL (which I agree with). If we look at the last 11 EPL games (which is when Kenny came in, starting with our loss at Blackpool), Liverpool are 3rd in terms of points gained, level with Arsenal, and behind only Man U and Chelsea (just). Which shows that Kenny has achieved performance out of this side on a par with the top 2 clubs this season as well as the defending champions.

So while it's understandable that people don't feel Kenny is good enough (EL disappointment, losses at both West Ham and WBA), it's important to bear in mind that "Rafa's pathetic squad" is still perfectly capable of top 4 performance with Kenny in charge, and this despite our injury load and "thin" squad that has seen us drop points very nearly every game after an EL or international game.

I think Kenny's doing ok, certainly could be better, but certainly not poorly enough to require yet another managerial change at this vital stage in our recovery. Most importantly he's brought unity to the club, and while that is not something you can assess in a performance spreadsheet, the lack of it killed both Rafa and Roy. Even if Steve Clark is making all the tactical plays and Damien Commolli is making all the signings, Kenny is the guy who keeps it all together. Don't underestimate this. This is not sentiment speaking - this is what is before our eyes.

So in your opinion, 24 points from 16 games is worthy of the sack and a lifetime of ridicule, but 25 points from 16 games is worthy of hero worship and a long term contract to manage Liverpool Football Club???? If we're both honest here, neither of them have excelled, and that is my point.

Only in a few of the games under Kenny have we played exciting football. There have been just as many games where we have been abysmal - including europa league, where our awful tactics and gameplay got us knocked out (something that hodgson avoided).

If you read my other posts, Hodgson was not up to the job in every other area as well, and frankly at the end he was begging for the 3m payoff. And yes, 24 points from 16 games is pathetic, especially when half of those points come from 4 games against unknown sides from darkest Europe. Is it really too hard for you to remember who Roy beat (other than Chelsea)? The 16 games also don't account for 2 more EPL losses that immediately followed them, as well as the Northampton debacle. Roy set a significant number of "worsts" for the club - that didn't happen by accident, and it took a few more than 16 games to achieve all of them.

Besides, Roy didn't get sacked after 16 games, he got sacked after 31, where his second "half" was better than the first by a single win. Hodgson's stats are propped up primarily by his 7-3-0 European record against poor to average opposition, where Kenny's greater points haul is backed primarily by 6-2-3 in the toughest league in Europe. You might play down EPL performance, but if an EPL manager does poorly in the EPL, then surely he is failing at his primary job function?

Let's not forget that Kenny had the "luxury" of 5 first team games in his first fortnight in the job, including Man U at Old Trafford and the derby. It's hardly surprising therefore that 3 of the 9 games where he "dropped points" came in the first 7 days of his tenure. Blackpool lost 5 of 6 during the New Year period, beating us: better preparation should have seen us win (or at least draw) against the side with the worst home record in the league.

But yes, Kenny's 25 points from 16 games is far from stellar - the pertinent point is that 20 of those come in the EPL (where points are actually important, rather than an aggregate win over 2 legs) at a time when only the league leaders (25) and the defending champions (21) have scored more. You seem to be the only LFC supporter who considers league performance inconsequential, though maybe that's just for the sake of this argument. Interesting thing, perspective.



wtf? Hodgson avoided awful tactics and game play? Which Liverpool side were you watching when Roy was in charge? The highlights of his "reign" was the draw with Rafa's squad against Arsenal, the home win over Chelsea where we had 11 men behind the ball for 45 minutes, and Steven Gerrard's 15 minute demolition of Napoli in a game that had "loss" written all over it. The rest varied in quality between dire and appalling.

Kenny's tactics in the EL mirrored Roy's due largely to the ineligibility of Suarez and the injuries to Carroll and Gerrard. Overly defensive away, try not to lose, and then score the winner at Anfield - it worked for Rafa in the CL, so drawing half these games is no surprise to anyone (except you, who considers any draws in ties over 2 legs to be weakness). Sadly we were poor in the return leg against Braga - but you're ready to hang Kenny for missing out in this game in a competition many supporters are pleased we won't be playing in next season? I'm glad you don't run the club.

Oh, and I only want a 2-year contract for Kenny, during which time he will be evaluated. That's hardly "long term"; in fact it's 12 months less than Hodgson had, and he was supposedly an "interim manager".

I didn't say Hodgson didn't have awful tactics...I said he avoided getting us knocked out of europe.

What do you have to say about our last game, where we beaten by a sh1t team with a sh1t manager?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a hodgson fan and was relieved when he was sacked, but I have seen nothing from KD to suggest that we're much better off:

knocked out of europe
still getting beat by sh1t teams
lost our star player
paid 35m for any carroll(!)
and aside from 1 or 2 games we are still very ugly to watch.

You seem to be letting the romanticism of Kenny's return and the glamour of us beating Utd mask over the FACT that aside from a disputable point or 2, we're no better off than we were under the currently unbeaten Hodgson.

Finally, I'd love to hear about all these fans that you claim don't want us to be playing in europe next season! Presumably you're glad we were knocked out of the europa league - it may have escaped your attention but we ain't getting champions league football when we're done over by the likes of west ham, blackpool and roy hodgson's west brom!!

Ok carheex, remembering to stay within the boundaries of reality what in your opinion should Mr Henry do in regards to Kenny?

It's pretty obvious really - he should wait until the end of the season before making any decisions. After that, If Mourinho is available we must do everything we can to get him (he would have more impact than any player we could buy), and thank Kenny for caretaking the club.
In the meantime I would set Kenny a target of going the rest of the season unbeaten and picking up 13 points from the remaining 21 along the way. Not a big ask. Anything less would show that he has been unable to improve us.

Why? What would you do?

Some people are Fckin thick. You should put your arguements about points where points are earned. Europa cup is a knockout competition as is the fa cup. You can't compare the two between Roy and kenny dalglish in Europe, because lets face it, we've been poor all season in that competition. Where as theres been significant improvements in the league and no one can deny it, it's in black n white

So your setting him a target of going unbeaten for the rest of the season yet only getting 13 out of 21!!! Lol

Carheex why don't you start a petition to get Roy hodgson back in charge of Liverpool. Results speak for itself and Kenny and liverpo have aquired nearly as much points in the league than hodgson did in 20 with 21 still to play for.