That's meant to say Torres but spellchecker butted in and I know how much we love the Tories on here

However reading an article by Owen Hargreaves and he says Werner is very much a Torres like player powerfully fast and deadly finisher. If he is half as good as Torres then we can count on winning the league again. To my mind we are already far and away the best team in the premiership and Werner (if Hargreaves is correct) would improve us. The question of course is who do you leave out and it blocks the path of that youngster we have whose name escapes me at the moment

If you are talking Brewster it won't block his path. He is nowhere near ready. As for who to leave out it is simple. You just rotate

Yes Brewster thanks and yes you are right not ready yet

I have watched a couple of Swansea games on Sky and he tended to drift in and out of games. He is not what I would call a constant threat. Origi and Shaq are not constant threats but you ignore them and suddenly you are 3 or 4 goals down as Barcelona discovered last season.

Brewster has ability. At the moment I put it as not as good as Origi but better than Solanke who we sold to Bournemouth. At the moment that puts him in the not good enough bracket. He missed a whole season with injury when He should have been learning.

He needs a season on loan at a PL club who will play him. If he does well perhaps he comes back in or will be sold for a good fee. He still needs to bulk up a bit. He gives away cheap fouls rather than having defenders bounce off him.

I'd have no issues rotating Werner with Firmino who can also play in attacking midfield, as a number 10. No player can play all our games including the cups and Origi coukd be sold as well. That said, from what i have seen i dont think he is as good as Torres but surely better than Tories

We need better cover/rotation options for the front 3, we have been lucky with injuries with the front 3 for the last few seasons. Who would be happy if we lost Mane, Salah or Bobby for 6 months due to injury relying on Origi to cover? I like Origi but he does not have their ability or their goal threat and never well, he is a useful option as a sub and to cover occasional games. Same with Brewster, he is a good player, but far too young and inexperienced to rely upon if you want to win trophies, he will play games and get more experience.

I can see the comparison with Torres, he has pace and does play allot more on the last defenders shoulder compared to what we have now, I think he could adapt to our style, he would also give us a different option to play through balls or over the top to exploit his pace.

If we can get him, he would be a good buy, it is rumoured we/Klopp has spoken to him, if that is the case I expect we will buy him, as we would not do that if we were not interested, I am guessing it is just the current PL/financial position and the unknowns of the transfer window which is delaying our move. After the furloughing fiasco, it would not go down well with the public if we were the first club to pay �50+ million for a player.

Agree again with you, except the last part, the furloughing decision was reversed and we hardly spent anything for more than a year after 2 record profits. That said, cant see our owners spending unless we sell.

I would imagine the fee has been agreed and terms with the player also but there may be a clause due to the times we are living in as to when payments to Leipzig are to be made.

Similarly Leipzig would welcome any revenue they can get to replace the zero they are getting at the moment through gate receipts.

Paying by instalments is nothing new but paying based on world events and situations could be. I think transfers are going to get more and more complicated.

The furloughing decision was reversed, but it's still a recent memory for the public/press, so if we went out and spent �50 million on a player, we would receive criticism on it. With lots of redundancies happening and a huge recession on the horizon, paying huge money would be an issue, I think we will hang back and see what happens when a few transfers happen, we will also be able to get a feel on the going rate, I expect transfer fee's will drop for the next few windows as it will be a buyers market.

We�d be criticised for spending and criticised (by fans) for not doing. Seems to me like we�re not going to win this next window.

I think once a few transfers go through, we might make a move, it's who is brave enough to put their toes in the water first, seems to be a few transfers involving player exchanges ATM, so no real monastery value mentioned.

If we do not sign anyone, you can imagine what allot of fans will say about FSG using the virus/market as an excuse, before this virus broke I never expected us to make many signings, maybe 1 or 2 with a few like Clyne, Lallana & Shaq probably leaving.

I am not too sure why we need to see what others are doing as we didnt buy any first team players for more than a year, and yes we only need to buy a couple of players

I think the transfer market will be pretty flat this year while teams take stock and try and assess the financial impact of this going forward. City will spend that much is obvious and so will Utd out of desperation.

Clubs might be financially OK today but we don't know what it'll be like next season and into next year. A good business will keep assets and cash in case things go totally wrong. Nothing wrong with doing that but that will obviously not keep the FIFA generation happy who just want bucket loads spent on whoever they bought on the game.

Whatever we do I'll be OK with. I hope we spend a bit and someone like Werner won't break the bank. If we can sell a few on the fringe and with Lalanna off the wage bill it should free up some money. If we don't get anyone then we all know we have a team that can cut it with the best of them. The pathologically miserable amongst us will obviously not be happy though.

If I didn't know better I would say you are narked about something

Nope. Just pointing out what will happen.

One interesting transfer could be Mario G�tze, he recently announced he would be leaving Dortmund on a free this summer, Klopp knows him well and it has been reported we have been in for him before, I think he would be a great buy, he's had injuries, but if we can get him playing he'd be a great buy.

He has the creative and guile to open up teams and can get a goal.

The most interesting part is that he is free, nothing like a free lunch..apparently

Gotze will be 28 in June and has an injury history that "even" puts Sturridge to shame!

Do we need another sicknote?

Season:

19/20 - Ill - Feb 27 to Mar 2, 2020 - Out 4 days

19/20 - Influenza - Oct 17, 2019 Oct 22, 2019 5 days

18/19 - Fractured Rib - Mar 15, 2019 Mar 25, 2019 10 days

18/19 - Knock - Jan 11, 2019 Jan 17, 2019 6 days

18/19 - Bronchitis - Oct 30, 2018 Nov 4, 2018 5 days

18/19 - Ill - Sep 27, 2018 Oct 4, 2018 7 days

17/18 - Back trouble - Feb 1, 2018 Feb 9, 2018 8 days

17/18 - Ruptured ankle ligament - Nov 27 to Jan 4, 2018 38 days

17/18 - Rest - Oct 23, 2017 Oct 26, 2017 3 days

17/18 - Rest - Sep 28, 2017 Oct 2, 2017 4 days

17/18 - Facial Injury - Sep 14, 2017 Sep 21, 2017 7 days

17/18 - Rest - Aug 10, 2017 Aug 14, 2017 4 days

17/18 - Back trouble - Aug 3, 2017 Aug 7, 2017 4 days

16/17 - Ill - Feb 27, 2017 Jul 6, 2017 129 days

16/17 - Muscular problems - Feb 13 to Feb 27, 2017 14 days

16/17 - Adductor problems - Feb 6 to Feb 13, 2017 - Out 7 days

16/17 - Knee Problems - Dec 5 to Dec 12, 2016 - Out 7 days

16/17 - Calf muscle strain - Aug 18 to Aug 29, 2016 - Out 11 days

15/16 - Fractured Rib - May 16 to May 26, 2016 - Out 10 days

15/16 - Fitness - Feb 1, to Feb 15, 2016 - Out 14 days

15/16 - Pulled hamstring - Oct 8 to Feb 1, 2016 Out 116 days

15/16 - Rest - Sep 10 to Sep 14, 2015 4 days

15/16 - Calf muscle strain - Jul 16 to Jul 20, 2015 4 days

14/15 - Bruised Knee - April 16 to April 17 2015 1 day

13/14 - Muscular problems - Mar 6, 2014 Mar 10, 2014 4 days

13/14 - capsular tear - Sep 2, 2013 Sep 26, 2013 24 days

12/13 - Torn muscle bundle - May 23 to Aug 12, 2013 81 days

12/13 - Torn Muscle Fibre - May 2, 2013 May 23, 2013 21 days

12/13 - Muscular problems- Apr 25, 2013 Apr 29, 2013 4 days

12/13 - Infection - Feb 4, 2013 Feb 7, 2013 3 days

12/13 - Dead Leg - Nov 26, 2012 Nov 29, 2012 3 days

12/13 - Calf muscle strain - Oct 18 to Oct 22, 2012 4 days

12/13 - Eye Injury - Jul 26, 2012 Aug 9, 2012 14 days

11/12 - Pubitis - Jan 19, 2012 Apr 5, 2012 77 days

11/12 - Torn Muscle Fibre - Dec 12, 2011 Dec 19, 2011 7 days

10/11 - Influenza - Oct 7, 2010 Oct 14, 2010 7 days

09/10 - Torn Muscle Fibre - Mar 4, 2010 Mar 22, 2010 18 days

Klopp was still interested in him a few years ago, even with all those injuries, It's a shame he has had all those injuries, he's a class player, could still be an option for squad/bench, like Shaq has been if he is leaving.

A case of penny wise pound foolish probably

You know a freebie won�t cut it with the spend, spend, spend brigade. Unless we pay at least �60m for him then he�s rubbish and FSG a tight.

As they say, the market is always right or at least most of the time.

It worked out well with the likes of Milner & Matip, so worth considering, if we get him on the right contract he could be a good buy, he is still relatively young at 27, if we can keep him fit, he would be a great signing, even if it is just as an impact type sub, one thing our MF sometimes misses is that bit of skill/guile to open up a stubborn defence, so he would add that.

Klopp knows him very well, so I would be happy to go with his judgement.

It worked with Milner but given his age, he wouldn't have cost a lot and no I dont think it worked with Matip if you look at how injury prone he is. VVD hardly missed a game if you want to compare

Typical spend, spend, spend brigade attitude. A player is free so must be dump. Bayern really took a chance on that feeebie Lewandowski all those years ago didn�t they?

What we need isn't another injury prone bench player.

We've had enough of that with the likes of Lallana, Shaqiri, Lovren and Matip.

No, you probably are not aware but Bayern planned it that way as they knew the player wanted to join them, and Lewandowski was not injured, but you wont know these things

Exactly, Matip would be worth more than 20m if he was not so injury prone, some people cant see beyond their nose...

Thanks for clearing that up for us dummies who can�t use Google there vish. We all bow to your superior footballing knowledge.

The point still stands. Not all free agents are injury prone rubbish as you suggested in your previous post. Goetze was a cracking player but as others have said we�ve had / have enough injury prone players so I�d not bother taking the risk. Might as well give Lallana a new contract or keep Shaq.

Matip was tremendous for us in the second half of the 2018-2019 season, he was key to us winning the CL, for that alone he was worth it as a free transfer.

I agree Goetze would be more of a risk with his injury record, but he might be worth the risk with his ability, we go into it knowing his injury record, I am sure at 27 he will still be looking to play at a big club in Europe, so he might agree to a pay as you play bonus type contract, so less risk for us.

I was talking specifically about Goetze not all players who went on a free, even, Mc Manaman went to Real Madrid on a free because the club didnt manage the situation well

Oh yeah old Shaggy and his contract. Owen too although at least we got the minimum for him.

G�tze is way too injury prone so not a good option. But I bet with the current situation there will be plenty looking to free agents this summer.

The deal is apparently off, Edwards wanted to negotiate the exit clause

A deal would�ve needed to be on to then be off and as far as I can tell that wasn�t the case.

I think it is all part of the negotiations, we are just trying to negotiate them down, so we will see.

^^^^^^This !

It depends on the player if the player wants the move the selling club are in a difficult position

Werner has pretty much said he wants to join us, he appears to have ruled out a few big clubs who were interested, he has also said he will stay at RB another year if he cannot get the move he wants, but from what i read, his release clause price drops every year into his deal.

As far as I know, the transfer window is not even open yet? so all talk of deals being off & on is premature, lots of negotiations will be going on between clubs/players/agents. Allot of deals would have been agreed in principle before the Virus struck, so buying clubs will probably be going back to reduce the fee's !

That doesn�t matter to some. If we�ve not signed someone by the end of March they�ll be moaning.

I�ve read pretty much the same about him. I think his release goes down to �35m next year too. I think I�m this time it�s sensible to negotiate as we don�t know what the financial landscape will look like going forward. And that�s all it is. Negotiating.

I agree, I heard his release drops to �40 million next summer, seems to drop �10 million per year of his deal, we have good relations with RB and they are not a 'blocking' club as their model is to develop players and sell on for the best profit, so if it is possible to do a deal, I think we will.

For his age, stats & experience, scoring goals in Bundesliga over a few years and for the German national team, his rumoured release clause of �50 million seems reasonable, so any ���'s we get him for below that is good business IMO.

Have they actually announced when this summers transfer window will be? I am guessing it will not open until the leagues are completed?

Yeah �50m for him ain�t bad. But you don�t just go straight in with that. Got to try and get the best deal you can.

Not sure on the window. I suppose after the league has finished? I�ve read about players who are out of contract as of June having small extensions until it�s finished so would make sense.

Makes sense for short extensions for players out of contract, if a smaller club lost a few out of contract players it could really weaken them, also, I am guessing as there is no transfer window they may not be able to sign for a new club anyway.

I am sure Michael Edwards & FSG will drive the best deal they can, hopefully we can get the deal done, if we only sign him this summer and lose the players we expect to leave - Lallana/Clyne/Shaq I would be happy with that, but I might be in the minority on here!!!!

I think with all the uncertainty that�s be ok for me too. The spend, spend, spend brigade will do their nut but you can never please the pathologically miserable. We�re in a good position especially if he�s said his preference was to join us. I�m sure if someone offers the buyout we�ll be in there.

Edwards will try to do a VVD most probably, ie, tapping the player and try to get a bargain and having to retract. However, paid the asking fee after a few months after selling Coutinho. We were lucky City or United didnt grab him, hopefully doesnt happen to others Klopp wants.

I don't think any tapping up is required, Werner has been quite open on his thoughts, it is about agreeing a fee, that's part of Michael Edwards job, to get the best deal he can for LFC, this is a changing market with the virus, so he should use that to our advantage if he can.

There is a chance we do not sign Werner due to our negotiations, but that's part of the game, we missed out on Fekir, but then we got Alisson. I think Alisson has been the better buy, if we would have got Fekir, I doubt we would have signed Alisson in the same Window, which would have left us with Karius or Mig's in goal, I doubt we would be 25 points clear in PL & CL champions now if that would have happened.

Far too sensible for the spend, spend, spend brigade to get there eccy.

Yes it is his job to negotiate the best deal, but I thought you said we will buy who Klopp wants, and in this case, the tranfer fee is known. I told you that FSG wont buy for any significant amount unless we sell and we agreed to wait and see. I said it was the same story when we bought VVD, ie, if we hadn't sold Coutinho, we wouldn't have bought him. What I want to say is that for FSG profit is the most important thing, winning trophies comes after and we are not even talking about money out of their pocket but what is generated by the club.

Lots of fans spend money on the club and it is normal that they want the money generated by the club through profits is spent in making the club stronger instead of selling before buying. I don't care if LFC makes huge profits as long as it is not losing money, I am however interested in having the best players we can afford.

Liverpool is predominately a commercial enterprise however any club at the moment needs to be very cautious with their finances transfers and contracts. The silly era is well and truly over.

Agree it's a commercial enterprise but I dont think a football club should exist only to make profits as other commercial enterprises, it should not lose money and go bankrupt for sure, but shouldn't be a money making machine for its shareholders. If you take the biggest clubs in the world, that is Real Madrid, Barcelona and Bayern are owned by fans whose objective is not to get dividends but for the club to win trophies unlike United for example whose owners bought the club through a leveraged buy out and has put huge debt on the club and also regularly taking dividends.

The squad is a mixture players that are just heading past their prime (thinking Hendo, Wij, Milner, Firmino? ) and players that are apparently either too young or not good enough to displace them.

It may be that until we win the league - assuming we do (which is always dangerous, and particularly in a scenario where the players may think they've done it but then have to win games in empty stadia, playing against teams that will be fired up to spoil our day) Klopp will not want to do any thinking about future players.

If we don't buy a couple of game ready 23-25yr old top class players, this season, we will need a wholesale rebuild, in two seasons - which might not be as easy. By then we may have had next season bereft of success and no longer have the pull we currently have. I have my doubts about Werner fitting in to our style BUT if Klopp did want him, and the funds allow, it seems crazy not strengthen. We are now linked with a Barca reject with attitude issues, if the media are to be believed. Why is this link stronger? Is he cheaper?

In any event, it is impossible to stand still for long without stagnation and disengagement being a danger. Ferguson constantly looked to improve his squad even when they were winning leagues. That provides competition for places - which is healthy. I worry (plenty other have made same obs) that the front three pick themselves without competition. We've been lucky with injuries (again, as obs by many others), on the whole. We also have almost no creative edge anymore, in midfield and that should be addressed. We have plenty of reasons to invest and to not do so will jeopardise the progress Klopp has made.

Was looking at the latest annual report for year ending May 2019 and the club has reimbursed the parent company about 20m as I suspected, 30m over 2 years. That was probably the loan given for the extension of the stand. Those who were worried about FFP, infrastructure expenses are not included in the costs when FFP is calculated, that is, if an owner wants to finance a club for infrastructure improvement, it can do so without constraints.

I think we�re still in for Werner. Edwards just using the current situation to our advantage and looking to get a reduced fee. Smart. I think there is or will be talks of us linked to other players who play in a similiar position that will come out, not of any real substance, but to try and force Leipzig to sell at a reduced price. They need the funds more than we need the player.

Reading all the recent reports, Werner has his heart set on us which is a bonus for us in that we can and are playing hardball as to the transfer fee.

Liverpool's current Werner transfer tactics:

Klopp interactions with Werner prior to recent reports, via video teleconferencing / telephone calls building up Werner's enthusiasm to play for us. It goes a long way that both are German and culturally the same, so discussions are fluent and rapport is built.

Liverpool PR Team only discuss the Werner interest from the club to Partisan media. Using current pandemic and financial situations for every club to downplay our interest.

Reports in the media are being amped up by both clubs partisan media...Leipzig's bandying several big clubs interest in Werner...Liverpool's using that by suggesting those big clubs already know Werner has his heart set on playing for Liverpool only.

Next step is for Werner to hand in a transfer request to Leipzig, telling Leipzig he only wants to play for Liverpool.

Of course we�re still in for him. It�s all part of the transfer negotiation dance. Anyone who thinks otherwise is quite frankly stupid. Will it work and he signs? Maybe, maybe not. But we�ll be in until the end.

I think that unless we sell or get a huge bargain because unlikely, we wont buy. RB Leipzig dont need to sell anyway.

I think it will ultimately come down to how much Werner wants to leave RB and how much he wants to join Liverpool.

As you say, RB do not need to sell financially, as they are backed by Red Bull, but they are not stupid, they know Werner wants to leave, that's why they negotiated a new deal last summer and the release clause was added, to protect his value and give him a fair way to leave, but those release prices were all set before the current Virus situation.

The RB model is to develop raw young players and sell them on, so they will want to show that, they do not want to be holding players to ransom against their will, as they will want to recruit the next Werner, Keita or Mane, they need to able to show that to the next generation of signing.

We are negotiating, I expect we will come to a compromise deal, but if we do not, maybe we will get him in January or next summer, like we did with VvD, we know when Klopp identifies the player he wants, he usually waits for them and does not go for 'choice B'.

RB is in a close fight for CL places with 3 other teams. if they fail to make top4, Werner will surely want to leave. hopefully reports of him only interested in us are true.

I think he wants to leave, preferably to us, however, it will depend on who triggers his exit clause, if any team does it, RB Leipzig will have to allow that club to talk to him.

In todays market I don't think we will be overly interested in paying as much as the exit clause price.

The risk now is that Manure or Chelski steps in and snatches him in front of us.

I don't really follow that. They are just as likely to not be able to afford / be willing to pay that amount in these times.

Chelsea don't need a striker really. They have a collection of attacking players and have Ziyech coming in who they signed in Jan.

Man United have to get Sanchez off their payroll and have got Ighalo until Jan now. Again they have lots of options. Just that loads of them are not at the top level consistently. They are also going to either hold on to Pogba and his wages or let him go cheap. This was someone they valued at �150m last season when he was banging in all those penalties.

United haven't replaced Lukaku so I think they would be interested, however, I suppose they will make their move if they qualify for CL, Chelsea only have Abraham as a CF because Giroud is not a first team player, however they will also need to wait for CL qualification otherwise Werner might not be interested except if he doesnt want to wait for a year to get a pay rise.

Seeing a few reports that we are now back in for Ousmane Dembele.
Barcelona don't seem to fancy him anymore since Seti�n arrived, Dembele's appearances have been very few and far between. It could be a smokescreen from LFC to flush out Werner from Leipzig or a Plan B with a loan deal for Dembele with a view to buying from Barcelona if Dembele does well.

In the current economic climate of uncertainty I wouldn't rule out us looking at loan deals. The Dembele situation at Barcelona could be an opportunity because Barcelona need to get wages off their books.

Dembele always injured. So I don't see us helping out a CL rival financially by loaning him. Barcelona are like Man Utd. They have got tucked up by agents and players demanding high wages and not performing up to the levels you would associate with that wage.

Lots of �200k a week players not cutting it.

We cureently sit 34 points ahead of Chelsea and 37 points ahead of Manure in the PL. Surely they would want to catch up with us.

We are so good at the moment that I can see us wait a bit more before we decide to do anything economically drastic in the current situation (Corona).

If we do so either of those clubs might step in and make a move. They clearly need to do something to improve and close the gap up to us.

I thought we made more money than Chelsea over the last 2 years

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/liverpool-confirm-timo-werner-transfer-22140375

Chelsea have a very rich owner, so he bank rolls the club.

FSG's business is sports ownership/management, they would have been heavily hit by the Covid-19 outbreak as all their sports franchises would have been impacted, going forward this will have a big impact on all clubs as Income/revenue will be down, no one knows how long for, so clubs have got to budget for that.

This is a negotiation, we have a value for a player and that's what we offer, if Chelsea offer more, that is upto them, they have always paid more in wages, so it's the players choice also.

Deaf ears again eccy. Deaf ears.

I like a debate

Chances are Chelsea will offer �200k wages. The likes of Hudson Odoi are on �180k. We would only offer �125k. Probably less under a Covid contract.

We cannot match the lure of London. Or Madrid. Or Bayern for that matter.

If he wants to come to us a year later like he has said then that will still happen.

You�ll just be told how wrong you are because you see things differently and aren�t pathologically miserable.

Yep. If reports are true then he wants to join us. If he then goes to Chelsea then he obviously wasn�t that bothered and is just chasing the coin so not the kind I want for the club.

Nothing is done yet though.

Chelsea took Pulisic last season when they thought we were sniffing around. Just after we bought Alisson they bought Kepa.

Through our actions are we deliberately making them pay top dollar for players?

If reports are true, he might want his situation sorted quickly instead of dragging maybe for a year if RB Leipzig dont want to sell below the exit trigger. As most players, they are not attached to LFC (lately only Gerrard was for obvious reasons) and I am sure that even VVD woukd have moved to another club if they were willing to pay what Southampton wanted. Good that we got money selling Coutinho and FSG moved their arses quickly, albeit after 6 months. Chelsea as a club doesnt have more money than us right now looking at their accounts by the way.

They couldn't have more money than us right now. Plus our net spend since last summer is 8 million I think. Going by reports we wanted him but were not willing to pay the fee and told him to wait another year. And then Chelsea come in and agree the fee and offer him good wages with the chance of first team football.

He'd be stupid to wait another year for us.

Although Chelsea have had a transfer ban, so maybe they have cash laying around. Will see what others clubs do this summer.

With Nike kit deal put off for another 2 months, I'd imagine we are going to get somebody significant to model the new kit. Maybe the far fetched reports of Mbappe, maybe not so far fetched after all?

Lets hope he is the old torres that went to chelsea now that werner is, y'know, going to chelsea.

And have an owner worth over $12bn compared to ours at just over $2bn. Perhaps they�re taking a different view of how the financial landscape will look after the pandemic and with Abramovic worth that much more can afford to. It�s not just as simple as we have a better balance sheet so can afford more. Way too simplistic.

Suggesting Mbappe will get them all going

Has it been confirmed then? Has he had his medical and seen in a Chelsea shirt?

I can't see him signing for Chelsea but at the same time I cannot see us paying the transfer fee and wages unless either Salah or Mane leaves.

I can see Barca, Real Madrid or PSG signing him.

Especially since he wants CL football. Chelsea are 4th only 3 points ahead of Man Utd in 5th it would be a huge gamble to join Chelsea with trainee manager Lampard if he wants the CL.


I think Chelsea leaked it to put pressure on player to join

I'm not too bothered if we sign Werner or not but the fact we never have money to spend unless we sell is a concern.how many big money making deals have we done?and still no money in the transfer windows.

I think this is similar to the comments he's been making for the last few months about wanting to join us, no doubt he/his agent has spoken to other clubs like Chelsea, RM, Barca etc, so they leak stories he's in talks with Chelsea, until he signs for someone, this is just all posturing and trying to get a move, if I was RB I wouldn't be happy with all this.

I'm not particularly bothered if we sign him or not, having seen him play in Bundesliga he looks a quality finisher, but doesn't seem to link in with the build up play that much, more of a target man using his pace to break away from the defence, so I'm not sure if he would suit our current play.

I think we do need quality cover for the front 3, so let's see.

So we have the wrong owners then?

The wrong owners..............

Who have helped us to get to 2 CL Finals (winning 1) and on the verge of winning our first PL in 30 years, also winning competitions like Club World Championship & Europa Super Cup, a Europa League final we lost, brought us probably the best manager in the world and having help assemble a top squad playing great football, improved the stadium, massively improved the business/commercial and helped make us self sufficient, helped clear huge debts that brought us to the brink of going out of business less than 10 years ago......... apart from that what have FSG ever done for us?

All that while keeping us within FFP and the club name not being tainted by claims of cheating/financial doping/sports washing.

I'm sure Hicks & Gillett were richer than FSG, if you prefer we go back to them as owners?

No. Just not a sugar daddy who can bring your FIFA dreams to life.

None of that matters. They didn�t buy us any players last summer. And look where it got us

No, I would have preferred Abramovic or Sheik Mansoor like owners who dont need to be lucky to get Klopp to win titles, they've won much more and without Klopp, even before Pep for City.

Where are those who said Klopp will get whichever player he wants, while I said we wont buy if we dont sell?

FSG were not lucky to get Klopp, they identified & hired him (no doubt with help from people who knew football better), allot of top clubs in the world were after Klopp and did not get him, so whatever FSG did/said worked to recruit him.

I am not going over the ownership argument again, we exhausted that on another thread and we will not agree, suffice to say I prefer us to be ran as a business rather than a billionaires play thing involved in financial doping & sports washing.

while we have been very successful under the current owners,i would put them as the main factor for our success.They hit the jackpot when they hired Klopp to be the manager.Klopp has worked miracles on a tight budget.we are not a cash rich club,we are yet to have the spending power of our rivals and if we didnt have Klopp in charge we might be in a spot of bother.

So why did it take them 5 years or so to get Klopp if he was identified as the chosen one? They went by trial and error and were lucky to hit the jackpot as they guy decided to cut short his sabbatical.

Oooooooooh well done you for being �right�.

Maybe a global pandemic got in the way?

Good to see the lazy �we were lucky to get Klopp� argument out again. I had this argument in another thread the other week and he couldn�t get it then so won�t now.

Thank you and nope, there were no pandemics in the last 2 windows, remember?

And look where those windows got us. We�re you �right� about that too?

So we should never buy players anymore then, right? Dont tell me Klopp knows best because he wanted Werner, even those media close to FSG said so, like Liverpool Echo

I agree with you there, we all thought Klopp was the best option and would be good, but I do not think any of us expected the success and style of football we have played based on the team he inherited, so he has performed much better than anyone's expectations.

FSG have made difficult decisions, they got rid of Kenny after winning our first trophy (League Cup) in a while and getting to the FA Cup final, they also sacked Rodgers after one of our best seasons in 25 years, so they did make difficult decisions when allot of owners might not have acted, that then enabled them to bring in Klopp.

Klopp was in another job and being very successful at it, as we know Klopp is very loyal and would not walk away from that, I don't know if they tried to get him before hiring Kenny on Rodgers.

FSG sacked managers they could easily have kept based on recent performances (previous years success), so they took those decisions, which enabled them to recruit Klopp, that was not luck.

You can argue that FSG were lucky Klopp turned out to be so good and achieve so much on a limited budget compared to most of his rivals.

This is what I am saying. The most important individual at LFC is Klopp and he will be there for a limited period of time and I cant see him achieving the same if others are buying better players while we stay where we are. We were lucky we didn't get any injuries with our 3 forwards, we cannot keep on riding on our luck

I agree we need better cover for the front 3, I would have liked us to buy Werner, either we did not want him or we cannot afford him due to the current financial problems, which affects every club, let's see what happens.

Lots of clubs have spent more money than us, like Utd, but they spend badly, we have spent well, it's not about who spends the most, it is about getting the right player, which is not always the most expensive/biggest name. I am happy to leave our recruitment team to bring the right players in, they have done well so far at this.

Wow so astute. That�s exactly what I was saying.

Just proves that there is more than one way to skin a cat. Your sugar daddy spend spend spend isn�t always the right way.

Also proves just how wrong you were to moan so much and be so relentlessly miserable last two windows.

And Klopp knows infinitely better than you that�s for sure.

Spend, spend, spend? What did we spend, do you even understand what you are saying?

But what's the point of knowing if he cannot do anything about it? I understand he likes the player I wanted signed for a year, Henry is keeping the money for Henry Jr who likes it that way

What I would like to see is... when we do eventually tie up the Prem Title and we do get some sort of Celebration and Mr & Mrs Henry and Tom are patting Klopp and the Players on their backs in front of the cameras... is for one of these so called partisan hacks to go rogue and shove a mic in John Henry's mush and ask him why he wouldn't give Klopp the funds to acquire "the" one player who Klopp has admired for so long, considering all the success Klopp has brought them?

Yep, that would be great but dont think it will happen unfortunately.

Apparently FSG wont take money out when they just did it in the last 2 financial years ending May 2019, 10m 2018 and 20m in 2019

https://www.teamtalk.com/news/liverpool-six-up-for-sale-fsg-to-raise-120m-transfer-funds

Best get your application letter in then. Go fight the cause as manager as you seem to think you know as much as Klopp.

I�d imagine it has something to do with this little global pandemic and a potentially horrendous recession. Or that we e had very little incoming since March yet our outgoings have barely changed. Maybe both? But it�s just a guess.

Have you a link or screen cap of where they�ve taken money? I missed the part of the report that was titled �money for owners�?

Or are you talking about the loan for the stand that was around �110m and is now around �80m which we all knew about?

I am a tad disappointed about the Werner snub but at the same time, I think Klopp isn't stupid, I think we have bigger fish to fry in terms of transfers. We have lacked a creative midfielder that will change the dynamics of our team, so may be Klopp is looking at a bigger picture than we get Havertz for example, Klopp knows and we probably all know you can't just play the same system for 3 seasons and expect the same results as the team needs to adapt and become stronger. Signing Werner would of been nice but we have players that can play that role already, Firmino, Origi, Minamino and even Salah. I also think we have a chance at Mbappe so may be we are waiting for him instead.

In annual reports it's never written 'money for owners' dont know if you have ever read one or know how it is interpreted. Shareholders have 2 ways to finance a company, either by injecting capital or loan and 2 ways to take money out, either as dividends or loan repayment. Money can also be forked out as Managemnet fees and Non Exec directors' fees. FSC did not inject capital in a club that was in bad shape but did it as shareholders loan because it's easier to pay back loans, but its also called quasi equity and therefore quasi dividends. Go and check the annual report, you'll find out maybe

Minamino doesnt play CF and Origi is not good enough, so it only really Firmino as Salah is usually played on the right, who will play there if he goes in the middle? Probably Eliott maybe despite his young age, but no money means no money

By the looks of it going from certain journalists we won't be making any big signings this summer.

I read the annual report but as I have this little thing called a life, I didn�t have time to look that hard. That�s why I thought I�d ask someone as clever as you for a screen cap (surely not beyond your talents and you can show us all how clever you are).

So was the money they �took� from the club for the new stand or to line their pockets? Google is my friend and after a quickie in there I couldn�t see any reports that they�re lining their pockets. If they were the FSG OUT brigade would�ve put it all over we the internet.

Not sure what you mean by lining their pockets, we are beyond Robinhood times you know. They shouldn't say they didnt take a penny if they took 30m, it's same as dividends when it comes to quasi equity.

They loaned us �110m for the new stand. What they�re taking is nothing more than repayments for that. It�s something we all knew was happening yet you�re making it out to be something it�s not to try and suit your agenda which is plain wrong.

Better if they didnt loan anything as you dont reimbursement capital projects so fast, did you know the repayments were going to be that fast, never heard? How long do you take to repay mortgages? Other owners are gifting their clubs, these ones cant even give long term loans, but of course you'll see this as normal, not sure why? I will just stop spending on the club as you, I might feel a bit better then

Oh dear. Looks like the dummy is right and the genius wrong

I don�t know how long the loan or the size of the repayments. The report says it�s now interest free too which you won�t get at a bank. My mortgage was over 25 years but if I had the money I�d pay it in 5 or 10 years. I can�t afford to do won�t but if the club can afford to pay it back quickly then why not?

I�m not entirely sure what you mean by �the others�. Not particularly legible??

I think it�ll take more than you not spending on the club to make you feel better. Pathological misery must be hard to shake. But you can do what you want with your money as can anyone. Spend it on the club or don�t. Your choice.

Do you even know what the interest rate have been lately? And yes, if you had money you would have preferred that, sure, but if we could have used that money to buy a player or 2 we might have won the treble in our best ever season. Look at City, they go to win everything not like us.

This always ends up in the same argument, you want owners who will just poor money into the club and buy the best 'name' players in the world, irrelevant of the finances of that and how they play as a team.

FSG will not do that, they never will, I prefer their model of running as a business and let Klopp manage the players, would City have bought Andy Roberts or brought through a player like TAA?? look at Sancho, he had to leave City to play football.

At the end of the day, we will not get an owner who ploughs crazy money into player transfers and wages unless FSG sell Liverpool which is unlikely in the current circumstances, unless FSG get into trouble, as it would be a cut price sale in the market now, even if they sell there are not many Abramovich or Sovereign states around to buy us as a play thing/sports washing.

It strikes me you deem success for Liverpool as judged by how much we spend on players every transfer window, rather that how many trophies we win or how good the football is? what in your mind is success for Liverpool? we have played some of the best football I have seen in 30 years in the last few years, we have won the CL and about to win the PL, even when not winning trophies we have been competitive getting to European finals and getting some of the largest PL points tallies and playing great football, what would make you happy? I am genuinely curious.

I know FSG will not plough money in as you say but i never expected one of the most profitable clubs in the world having one of the lowest net spend, that says it all. Yes we are ok for now, but have the potential to be much more. Some say I keep asking to spend, spend, spend, but is spending on one attacking player too much to ask? Do you think Origi is good enough to replace any one of our forwards should any one of them get injured? Should we take that kind of risk when the club is generating enough money to buy at least one player? I think they are opportunists, but if you are happy with them, so be it, anyway I cant change anything

I have agreed with you in the past that we need better quality cover for the front 3, I like Origi but he is a drop in quality, I think playing 3 up front we need 4 quality players so you can rotate/cover for injuries etc, so no arguments from me there. Ee will probably sell one of the front 3 in the next few years as they are all ageing together, so we need ready made replacement, as Brewster & Elliott look good, but are not guaranteed to make the grade to lead our line, I'm not sure on Minamino yet but I don't see him as an out & out forward like a Salah or Bobby anyways.

I don't think anyone at Liverpool is saying we do not need another quality forward, we have been constantly linked with forwards in the last few years and it seems like Klopp has been in touch with some based on reports, so I think it's a weakness we have identified, the question is can we afford the player, before the pandemic it appears we could, now it appears we cannot. I still expect us to sign someone, but Chelsea have jumped in for Werner, but he still hasn't signed as far as I know, a week ago it was a done deal he was signing for us, so you never know.

I am happy with FSG running the club, IMO they have done well, look at where we were when they bought us and where we are now, but I am not blind, I do agree we should be in a better financial situation with our recent success, maybe FSG are being over cautious/prudent, we may come to regret missing Werner, the release clause doesn't seem that extravagant for an experienced 24 year old German International scoring lots of goals in a top league, so it does surprise me, which is why I think there must be something else going on we do not know about? I am still not 100% Werner would fit into our current style of play, as he likes to run onto balls/space rather than getting involved in the build/link up, who ever we sign, if its a top quality forward it won't be much cheaper than the �50 million release clause.

�30m to buy a player or two?? That would�ve kept you happy I�m sure

So can we just clear up then the fact that you were wrong about FSG taking money from the club? I know you�re skipping that now as you e been done by the dummy but confirmation would be nice.

And City use financial cheating to win from owners that are much much richer than ours. Get a grip that�s a rubbish argument.

Ain�t that the truth. Just about everything he posts is related to it like a broken miserable record. Proper boring.

How is it that they didnt take the money from the club? where has the 30m gone to, did it stay in the club? And 30m plus 25m for Origi easily gets you Werner last summer, but a bit too hard for you to understand probably.

Financial cheating? Are they guilty of anything in the EPL, if anything it is in the CL where the limit is much lower, so think before you write. And City has been winning 6 to 7 times what we've won since they were bought over.

Nobody is forcing you to read Jr

Oh dear. Clutching at anything to be right hey? The money paid for a loan that we all knew about for the stand refurb. That�s not taking money from the club at all. Just admit that you made up some old load of dump to try and further your anti FSG agenda. You�re just looking stupid now and let�s not forget I�m the dumb one here.

Financial cheating? Yes. Think before you write you say? Maybe take that advice yourself before making up lies and posting them.

Haha. JR. Are you 5 or something? Playground stuff from the genius mind of vish.

Believe me I try not to read the turd you post but as you tend to rubbish most threads with the same turd it�s hard to avoid it.

Oh dear, maybe you could explain what taking money out means to you. Proceeds from operations and player sales are being used to reimburse capital expenditure quicker than the returns of that investment, but hey ho, it is being compared to household budget with house mortgage reimbursement, cannot say anything there.

I said some months back that funds were taken from the club when Klopp said last summer that there were bills to pay and no money to spend, remember, I was right when I checked in the annual report which you dont have time to read, by the way it took me a few minutes to find out, but stay in your belief.

Look, you�ve said they�re taking money to make them look bad. They�re taking money to pay back a loan to the club. Nothing more. And there are bills to pay unless everything gets aid for by fairies?

I think we�ve established that you�ve been talking absolute muck through this to try and make the owners look bad. You�ve lied to further your agenda against them which is low even for you. You just do t like it that the dummy of the forum has seen through it and called you out.

You are wrong so let�s just move on to your next lie to try and make them look bad hey?

Oh my god, really. Let me explain one last time with some perspective in hope that you will understand how infrastructure financing works instead of talking crap.

Last summer, Klopp came out saying that we didnt buy because we had no money and bill's to pay, and that after record profits of 145m in financial year ending May 2018 and record revenues in financial year 2019 as we won the CL and finished 2nd. That looked very fishy and as I didnt think he was lying, it was clear to me that funds were going to the shareholders. To know what happened was only possible after looking at the May 2019 annual report which I saw a few weeks back. By the way, I knew then that any funds transfer would be through shareholder loan repayment, any high school kid studying accounting or finance would know why, dont need to be a genius to know that.

Now, maybe you think it's ok, but I don't and I will explain to you why. If you are Liverpool and go to financial institutions for a long term financing of 100m in infrastructure, you can negotiate interest rate over 30 years through a bond issue. This is how Spurs are financing I think something like 2.6% interest, I think we could get even lower because repayment of our stand is much less risky, so 2% is easy to get IMO, long term interest these days can go down to 0.5%. That would amount to about 5m repayment per year (capital and interest). That would have allowed us to run Liverpool without any burden as the additional stand revenues would cover the costs. Our owners have taken 30 million over 2 years, ie, 3 times more.

You might tell me, but how does this help them, they are just taking what they gave, they could have taken the loan now and pay themselves their 100m debt, right. Well, I am sure this is what they are doing but at a higher level and getting the benefit at the expense of the club. The debt of Liverpool reducing through quicker payments, allows them to increase the valuation of LFC and most importantly the value of FSG group which allows them to have cheaper financing at the FSG level. So basically what they are doing is allowing them to service their debt at the expense of LFC which ends up having no funds to buy players as we saw.

If you are happy with that so be it, but commenting without having even read the annual report, let alone understanding it, is pathetic. No need to agree with me but saying I am lying without understanding what I am saying just shows what you are. As the saying goes, you can only take the donkey to the river, but cannot force him to drink.

Simple fact is you�re wrong and the only money FSG have taken is for a loan that was well publicised. You lied to make it seem like they�re skimming profit to top up their bank balance.

As they say, no point arguing with stupid as they�ll only drag you down to their level.

What was well publicised that they took 30m as loan repayment, do you have a link? I don't understand what skimming profits means, the money they took to repay the loan came from profits, where do you think they came from, the sky? You are right about the stupid who thinks that a half billion company is run as their household or a little shop.

you have to remember that FSG are not here for the benefit of LfC!they are here primarily for the benefit of FSG!they are happy to invest/loan money to the club as long as it increases the worth of the asset.We can see this from the net spend the club has made on players in the last few years,they are not prepared to give Klopp money to spend and he knows it.the only money Klopp will be allowed to spend will be the money he makes from player sales.this hasn't got anything to do with covid-19 but it will be used as a reason.Remember not so long ago when FSG were going to use the furlough system to save a few quid?that tells you all you need to know about our finanaces.
Luckily we have the best manager in the world who has worked wonders with this group of players.I for one will not be expecting any incoming players this summer unless there is sales made. FSG are not about to spend money on a squad that is already proven to make them money.
FSG are here to maximise the profit on their investment. They are waiting for the offer they cant refuse.then they will sell up grab their sacks of cash and head off into the sunset!

Well said Kernow!

Totally agree on that!

Totally and utterly agree, and to give some perspective, see the link below, tells us how cash flow generated by the club is not going into player purchases and that Klopp has worked miracles. Some might be happy with this, though I rather think they dont see/understand the whole picture. I would even say SP was right about investment in the stadium, though a new stadium would have put a huge burden on the club as there wouldn't have been any funding from those suckers. Cant understand how supposedly LFC fans defend FSG more than the club, probably because Klopp is the tree hiding the forest.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/11805011/liverpool-premier-league-transfer-spend/

Linking to the Sun is probably not the best idea.....

I agree FSG are not here for the love of Liverpool, they bought us as a relatively cheap punt to get into the PL when we nearly went out of business under H&G, they knew with their sports management experience and our global name, supporter base and history that they could develop us into a good business for them, it has proven to a be a very wise investment.

FSG want us to run as a self sufficient business, that makes sense rather than relying on a sugar daddy or a sovereign state, as they can lose interest/money and disappear.

I agree Klopp is doing a great job and under different management things could be very different, the same could be said about when we were under Paisley/Fagan/Dalglish. Man Utd spent fortunes in the 80's and didn't win much, so it's not always who spends the most, it's how you spend it, as we have seen under Klopp.

Ok have changed the link, but the info is similar

https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-rea...ast-five-years/

I agree that we need to be self sustaining, though I would have preferred some help from shareholders. However, getting 30% reimbursement of loan over 2 years for capital project is not far to stealing for me.

As I explained earlier, raising capital which was loaned by FSG in the same manner as Spurs are doing for their stadium would have cost us less than 10m over 2 years instead of 30m. Paying not more than 5m a year for the new main stand would have allowed us to buy the one player everybody said we needed (after selling Origi) last season.

I saw Werner for the first time today he looks good and would fit our system well are we not buying him now though heard he was going to Chelsea

No cash flow we need to reimburse the shareholder loan quickly

I knew it ! the bloody cheapskate owners again

So Werner deal is done for Chelsea, interesting article here, some big numbers, �12 million fee to his agent and �175K a week !!!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52970103

I still think he is a good player, but Chelsea need him more than us, so I guess that's why they are willing to pay that money.

Pressure will be on Lampard to get them CL next season.

12m on top of his release clause? And we don't even pay Mane that money in wages and he is one of the top players at the club. You can talk all you like about the owners but that is a package north of 100m on an unproven player in the premier league. I would rather we take that risk on a top player and in a position we need like midfield.

Not sure why the agent is paid that much unless Chelsea promised him 12m if he could convince Werner to join them after that we decided not to pay the release clause. For the wages, I understand LFC players earn a big part on variables, this is why we are apparently second in total only to United, a little bit above even City

I think allot of LFC pay has incentive's based on performance, which is how it should be, the better they do and win trophies, the more the club earns in TV revenue/sponsorship/prize money, so the players get more money from this, if they do not perform and win trophies, they do not get the bonuses and the club has a smaller payroll. This is where Man Utd have gone badly wrong, paying huge pay without incentives, so players like Sanchez & Pogba get huge pay without needing to do anything..

�12 million for an agent is crazy money, it's not like he has done much, the player want's the move, the club want the player, deal done, I guess this was part of the new contract he signed with RB last year, where the agent gets part of the transfer fee.

Seems to me Chelsea are desperate to bring in a decent forward, so they have paid whatever was demanded. I can see why Klopp & FSG had doubts over the package, all seems allot more than he been talked about for the last few months.

The post mortem on this another main/priority transfer target gone sour. Klopp must be raging that a player he had made "a must" have for a number of years, didn't materialize.

There's a dejavu feel here where we had always been "the bridesmaid and Never The Bride". Low balling and making our interest known for sometime, ultimately leaving us with egg on our face. It was a familiar routine feeling as a Liverpool fan, that we thought had changed with the acquisitions of Van Dijk and Alisson.

It was not so long ago under our current Owners, where we'd wave Ian Ayre off with excited trepidation on what seemed a slow boat to China, to such far fetched places as Ukraine for Konoyplanka or Shakhtar's training base in Florida for the next wonderkid in Teixeira etc...etc... for Ayre to turn up months later with tanlines, sombrero, maracas, having used up all his glass bartering beads, but with "No" Konoyplankas or Teixeiras!

I get the feeling there was an over confidence to getting a deal done for Werner, at whatever price Liverpool's hierarchy felt.
The ChiComm pandemic being used as an excuse is poor, considering the credit Klopp and the team had already banked for the Owners.

They had invaluable experience to know Leipzig (who are bank rolled by the BIG BRAND Red Bull) where never going to budge on the price set for Werner. Our ridiculous pursuit of Naby Keita and Leipzig's business model is known to buy low and cultivate and sell at the price they set, pandemic or no pandemic.

Our hierarchy's inability here is compounded by the fact with no football for 3 months and a much smaller world with such technological advances in telecommunications, there was no need for in-person, face to face sit down talks, they had all the tools at their disposal to get this deal over the line. Their low-balling / stalling, emboldened Chelsea to nip in and get Werner under their noses. For 2 1/2 months at least, we where Werner's wet dream...Chelsea where knowhere to be seen or even on Werner's radar, so the money issue was purely the transfer fee!

We paid �40m or so for Alex Oxlaide-Chamberlain
We paid �40m or so for Mo Salah
We paid �36m or so for Mane

Surely Werner's �45m release clause was right...possibly even cheap considering what we would likely be getting? We even had the chance to get him a season earlier for �22m before Leipzig extended his contract.

There was no other reasons here other than an over confidence and greed that ultimately led to Klopp missing out on a player he rates very highly.

A BIG missed opportunity!

I dont think we would have paid the same amount to the agent as the player had already decided he wanted to come to us, in any case whatever the fee, Liverpool was well aware and interested when Klopp talked to Werner, so it cannot be that suddenly it's the agent's fee that became the stumbling block. I rather think that Chelsea promised to give 12m to the agent if the latter could convince Werner to come to Chelsea especially as CL is far from done.

Chelsea got a good deal as we were well interested at that fee. So it's not about being desperate but value for money which we apparently dont have, simple

Totally agree

I like Werner, I wanted us to buy him, still not 100% on how we would play with him as he is abit different playing in space and off the shoulder of the defenders as the focus of attack when I have seen him for RB, so with us that would have changed, but I always think a quality player can change their game to suit the team.

I think the agent would have got �12 million who ever he signed for, that was just the commission he got, players usually go where the club pays best commission to agents !!!!

With VvD we were trying to low ball Southampton, didn't we offer about �40 million (expected price was said to be �50 million in press) when the sh*t hit the fan and Southampton threatened to report us for illegal approaches so we put out an apology to the press?

Also Alisson, I am sure we were in for him but Roma wanted about �80 million initially, so we dropped interest, then Roma dropped the fee to about �65 million a few months later as they needed to sell to get FFP balanced, the Fekir deal collapsed and Karius had a shocker in pre-season and we bought Alisson for about �65 million.

So even our big deals we have tried to reduce the fee, there is nothing wrong with that, its a negotiation, you don't go in a car showroom and pay the price on the car, its negotiation, that's business, I do think we were complacent thinking we had Werner in the bag and we was going nowhere else, so that probably influenced our stance.

Most press/people in the know sing the praises of Michael Edwards/our recruitment Team, saying we have done great business in the last few years, which we have, we would not have won the CL or PL without them, so you cannot then turn round and slate them when we miss some players or pull the plug on deals. We do not see all the information, look at how it's come out on the agents fee. We cannot always get the players we want for a variety of reasons, if Werner would have waited, I still think we might have got him when Covid restrictions are lifted, either in the summer or winter, so the club knows the financial situation better, like if we have fans in the stadium/selling merchandise etc, but Werner wanted to move now, that's his choice.

Of course we should negotiate but success is when we sign our target, else it's a failure and in this case we knew the release clause and we knew he was value for money. I can understand that covid apparently changed the plans but we could have signed Werner last summer or even last winter, but it was more important to refund the shareholder's loan. I can only hope it doesn't come to haunt us and we should not always rely on Klopp making miracles and our top attackers not getting injured.