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Joined: Jul 2012
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Under 23 Player
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Under 23 Player
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,824 |
That is a bit melodramatic. For the past 20 years the club has - invested time and money in managers with no long-term strategy/strategies that have brought mixed/bad results. This is change. We need to embrace it now, or else we'll be settling for the same abject failings of Rodgers' predecessors. No league title in 20 years, and the first sign of a change in the way we approach sales and transfers is met with despondency. Why? What have we done so well before? Rafa won us a CL, and fought a close title race. Houllier won a Uefa Cup, and built a team that capitulated after leading the league by 9/10pts... Do I really need to go on..? They are exceptions to a long list of finishing 3rd or below and settling for a CL place...
So many times, groups that take the short-sighted view of trying to beat with their competitors fall foul of internal targets at a high price. That is clubs, businesses and people in general. Strive to improve yourself. That is what we are doing. We are taking calculated risks and signing long-term players to compliment the team now... There is only one way of cutting corners and time and that is with money. If you don't have it, why spend the rest of your time moaning about it. You make the very most of what you have; not spend life looking at the others despondently. It gets you nowhere.
Can I just ask why you think the people in the club "can't assess risk to reward ratio" or "invest accordingly"... Plus... you're suggesting that the £75m net spend they've made in the last 2 years is "frugal to abject failure..." HOW?!
If FSG were here to asset strip, they'd loan players in, and sell everyone. If they were looking for a sale, they'd retain the players "perceived" to be of best quality and value, and for most onlookers, Reina is of better quality than he has delivered consistently. Torres wouldn't have been sold if this was what they planned. Nor would Meireles or Kuyt have been. They also wouldn't have hired BR. They'd have hired a manager with a brand for a name. If FSG were frugal to death, then Rodgers wouldn't have spent the money he has since he came in. They'd have told him to sell players and give him part of the proceeds.
We need fighters in the team, people that feel they have something to prove, and are good enough to become great players. We have settled for Reina losing form. We have settled for Downing losing heart. We have settled for Carroll not tracking back. We even settled for Skrtel making mistakes early on in the season. We settled for a regular midfield of ADAM and HENDERSON when neither were performing well-enough to make the first XI of any other top team. We have settled for nothing more than AVERAGE from players that we should have been demanding more from. Now we are moving these players on, or working them hard to improve them, and signing those with fight, and we have fans screaming from the rooftops that the club are preparing for failure, and looking to destroy the club inside out. If anything, they are building a tight group of young players, with a spine of top performers. It is the first-time, in years, I can actually see a buzz on the training field.
For years WE, as a fanbase, have called for a stadium expansion. We have called for better offerings from our youth academy. We have called for stability. We have called for the shipping out of under-performing high-contract players. We have called for more drive and fighting spirit. We now have a manager and owners trying to build that, and all fans can do is try to rip the layers of the onion piece by piece rather than analyse it with common sense; never mind holistically. As one whole move, not just "there goes a good player, this club is idiotic".
I NEVER want to settle for 4th. I want to see us fight for a title and win one. I have never seen it happen. Since I became a fan, the club has done one thing consistently... not manage to build a single squad of 25 players with enough quality. The one season under Houllier, the rest of the PL was weaker than usual. Most other teams under-performed for half a season, and then we fell apart like a perfectly cooked fish. The one season under Rafa, we over-achieved - for half a season we played out of our skin, and still finished adrift of Utd. Last minute goals don't bring regular success. They are lucky escapes, even if the goal had looked likely for 90 minutes.
The club is in a rebuild that started 1 year ago. FSG have been there longer, but most of the work done under previous managers and stewards was FSG throwing money and hoping a manager could make it work fast. Lets stop with the over-dramatic nonsense about the owners and their methods. There are much easier ways of making money than in football. If you want to blind-side their successes in baseball. Blind-side their obvious investments. Blind-side their movements outside of the first-team in both the stadium and the commercial side... Then do so. I'm not here to pick you up from your abject view of the club. If this is the positivity after a few weeks of pre-season, I dread to think of the positivity we might see come game 1.
Why is everybody fighting change? There is no evidence of asset stripping. There is no evidence of looking to sell. There is no evidence that the stadium expansion won't happen soon. There is no suggestion that investment in the team is being limited to nothing. And to date, there is no suggestion we are going to part ways with the players that are performing - like Suarez. For fans said to steeped in knowledge of football, and fans able to disregard the press to make their own minds, there are so many choosing to put up a brick wall against obvious things. How can abject failure be the only thought that comes to mind? It is mind-numbing/blowing. It is an ill-configured argument with no reasoning at all in my eyes.
My opinion, on those arguing against, and those advocating our moves by FSG is simple. There are those who hold religious faith to the old method. And there are those that are taking the scientific approach. There are those that base their arguments on the past, and morals of old. And there are those that cut through the hard facts. There are those that say THEIR eye for talent is tremendous, the same eyes that are deceived by optical illusions and 3D glasses. And there are those that look at the closest thing to fact, and make reasoned arguments based off them.
If you want to settle for money-bags owners that could bring success and pull the plug on money, and spiral us back down to near administation/financial wreckage do so, support the clubs that we don't like. Man City and Chelsea, who "buy" titles. FSG are investing time and effort, over money. Surely you should be appreciating them for trying to earn our respect, than buy it. You don't respect the father that left you 10 years ago because he bought you a car. He can just as likely drive off in it 10 minutes later and leave you with nothing again.
I realise I have become the melodramatic one, and I am sure someone will notify me for being critical of anyone with an opposite view to my own, but until someone can give me one single piece of evidence of why the club is doing the terrible thing of selling under-performing players, then I really see no reason to say much more on this post or any other.
Seriously, why bother to post? Why bother to invest time trying to discuss footballing matters, when everyone would much rather spend their lives fighting with the ONE club you truly hold closest to your heart. If it is not the owners, its the managers, its the players, its the youth policy, its the commercial side, its the stadium. There is a need for everyone on here to externalize and blame everything on something. Its immature. Its petty. Its nothing but stupidity to me. I just don't get it. When it doesn't happen, those saying it won't get the nonsense of it either.
If I'm lucky, I might read a not-so-despondent comment on here tomorrow. If I'm not, maybe I'll have to leave most (not all) you negative fans behind me. Supporting the club is the most entertaining and rewarding arduous thing you will ever do in your life. Having to try and make people see sense is not. It is draining, and I really can't be done posting or typing any more justification for not looking at the club so negatively. You'd think we'd sold all our squad and hired kids no taller than 4 ft, with Sam Allardyce trying to get them to play long-balls into the box. I've see homeless people hold more hope for the next year than some people on here.
And on THAT bombshell, it is time to end the rant. Thanks for reading, and see you next time.
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,185
1st Team Squad
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1st Team Squad
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,185 |
Jeez man you're up late aren't you?
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 22,926
Liverpool Legend
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Liverpool Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 22,926 |
That is a bit melodramatic. For the past 20 years the club has - invested time and money in managers with no long-term strategy/strategies that have brought mixed/bad results. This is change. We need to embrace it now, or else we'll be settling for the same abject failings of Rodgers' predecessors. No league title in 20 years, and the first sign of a change in the way we approach sales and transfers is met with despondency. Why? What have we done so well before? Rafa won us a CL, and fought a close title race. Houllier won a Uefa Cup, and built a team that capitulated after leading the league by 9/10pts... Do I really need to go on..? They are exceptions to a long list of finishing 3rd or below and settling for a CL place...
So many times, groups that take the short-sighted view of trying to beat with their competitors fall foul of internal targets at a high price. That is clubs, businesses and people in general. Strive to improve yourself. That is what we are doing. We are taking calculated risks and signing long-term players to compliment the team now... There is only one way of cutting corners and time and that is with money. If you don't have it, why spend the rest of your time moaning about it. You make the very most of what you have; not spend life looking at the others despondently. It gets you nowhere.
Can I just ask why you think the people in the club "can't assess risk to reward ratio" or "invest accordingly"... Plus... you're suggesting that the £75m net spend they've made in the last 2 years is "frugal to abject failure..." HOW?!
If FSG were here to asset strip, they'd loan players in, and sell everyone. If they were looking for a sale, they'd retain the players "perceived" to be of best quality and value, and for most onlookers, Reina is of better quality than he has delivered consistently. Torres wouldn't have been sold if this was what they planned. Nor would Meireles or Kuyt have been. They also wouldn't have hired BR. They'd have hired a manager with a brand for a name. If FSG were frugal to death, then Rodgers wouldn't have spent the money he has since he came in. They'd have told him to sell players and give him part of the proceeds.
We need fighters in the team, people that feel they have something to prove, and are good enough to become great players. We have settled for Reina losing form. We have settled for Downing losing heart. We have settled for Carroll not tracking back. We even settled for Skrtel making mistakes early on in the season. We settled for a regular midfield of ADAM and HENDERSON when neither were performing well-enough to make the first XI of any other top team. We have settled for nothing more than AVERAGE from players that we should have been demanding more from. Now we are moving these players on, or working them hard to improve them, and signing those with fight, and we have fans screaming from the rooftops that the club are preparing for failure, and looking to destroy the club inside out. If anything, they are building a tight group of young players, with a spine of top performers. It is the first-time, in years, I can actually see a buzz on the training field.
For years WE, as a fanbase, have called for a stadium expansion. We have called for better offerings from our youth academy. We have called for stability. We have called for the shipping out of under-performing high-contract players. We have called for more drive and fighting spirit. We now have a manager and owners trying to build that, and all fans can do is try to rip the layers of the onion piece by piece rather than analyse it with common sense; never mind holistically. As one whole move, not just "there goes a good player, this club is idiotic".
I NEVER want to settle for 4th. I want to see us fight for a title and win one. I have never seen it happen. Since I became a fan, the club has done one thing consistently... not manage to build a single squad of 25 players with enough quality. The one season under Houllier, the rest of the PL was weaker than usual. Most other teams under-performed for half a season, and then we fell apart like a perfectly cooked fish. The one season under Rafa, we over-achieved - for half a season we played out of our skin, and still finished adrift of Utd. Last minute goals don't bring regular success. They are lucky escapes, even if the goal had looked likely for 90 minutes.
The club is in a rebuild that started 1 year ago. FSG have been there longer, but most of the work done under previous managers and stewards was FSG throwing money and hoping a manager could make it work fast. Lets stop with the over-dramatic nonsense about the owners and their methods. There are much easier ways of making money than in football. If you want to blind-side their successes in baseball. Blind-side their obvious investments. Blind-side their movements outside of the first-team in both the stadium and the commercial side... Then do so. I'm not here to pick you up from your abject view of the club. If this is the positivity after a few weeks of pre-season, I dread to think of the positivity we might see come game 1.
Why is everybody fighting change? There is no evidence of asset stripping. There is no evidence of looking to sell. There is no evidence that the stadium expansion won't happen soon. There is no suggestion that investment in the team is being limited to nothing. And to date, there is no suggestion we are going to part ways with the players that are performing - like Suarez. For fans said to steeped in knowledge of football, and fans able to disregard the press to make their own minds, there are so many choosing to put up a brick wall against obvious things. How can abject failure be the only thought that comes to mind? It is mind-numbing/blowing. It is an ill-configured argument with no reasoning at all in my eyes.
My opinion, on those arguing against, and those advocating our moves by FSG is simple. There are those who hold religious faith to the old method. And there are those that are taking the scientific approach. There are those that base their arguments on the past, and morals of old. And there are those that cut through the hard facts. There are those that say THEIR eye for talent is tremendous, the same eyes that are deceived by optical illusions and 3D glasses. And there are those that look at the closest thing to fact, and make reasoned arguments based off them.
If you want to settle for money-bags owners that could bring success and pull the plug on money, and spiral us back down to near administation/financial wreckage do so, support the clubs that we don't like. Man City and Chelsea, who "buy" titles. FSG are investing time and effort, over money. Surely you should be appreciating them for trying to earn our respect, than buy it. You don't respect the father that left you 10 years ago because he bought you a car. He can just as likely drive off in it 10 minutes later and leave you with nothing again.
I realise I have become the melodramatic one, and I am sure someone will notify me for being critical of anyone with an opposite view to my own, but until someone can give me one single piece of evidence of why the club is doing the terrible thing of selling under-performing players, then I really see no reason to say much more on this post or any other.
Seriously, why bother to post? Why bother to invest time trying to discuss footballing matters, when everyone would much rather spend their lives fighting with the ONE club you truly hold closest to your heart. If it is not the owners, its the managers, its the players, its the youth policy, its the commercial side, its the stadium. There is a need for everyone on here to externalize and blame everything on something. Its immature. Its petty. Its nothing but stupidity to me. I just don't get it. When it doesn't happen, those saying it won't get the nonsense of it either.
If I'm lucky, I might read a not-so-despondent comment on here tomorrow. If I'm not, maybe I'll have to leave most (not all) you negative fans behind me. Supporting the club is the most entertaining and rewarding arduous thing you will ever do in your life. Having to try and make people see sense is not. It is draining, and I really can't be done posting or typing any more justification for not looking at the club so negatively. You'd think we'd sold all our squad and hired kids no taller than 4 ft, with Sam Allardyce trying to get them to play long-balls into the box. I've see homeless people hold more hope for the next year than some people on here.
And on THAT bombshell, it is time to end the rant. Thanks for reading, and see you next time.
Very long and melodramatic post saying that you basically believe in everything that FSG is doing despite flip flapping a number of times since they took over almost 3 years ago. I wonder if you agreed with what they did in their 1st year or you said then that they were wrong and now they are doing the right thing. I still find it difficult to understand how it is better for us right now to buy Mignolet and send Reina on LOAN, according to me that money could have been spent where I think our priorities are much bigger. We are definitely not saving money with these moves and I don't think that the team just got much better. For instance, spending that money on central defence of even midfield would have made more sense, but, you seem to believe that this is what was needed right now. What can I say, you should be very happy that we have FSG, good for you.
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 8,564
1st Team Squad
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1st Team Squad
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 8,564 |
Because A) it gets him off the books and frees up money and B) his value is lower than it should be because of his performances. If he comes back rejuvenated next season, it'll be better for all parties, whether we want to keep him or sell him. I personally wish we would keep him, but it makes sense. Also, I'm sure there's a recall clause if Mig is absolutely pants or gets hurt.
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,886
Under 23 Player
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Under 23 Player
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,886 |
Have to disagree on this one Red!
I have to admit I've really got riled about this move, I don't see it as good business just a waste of £10 million and a loan deal where he won't want to come back and the Italians will low ball next year.
I am also not buying the view that he was somehow now at the level of a Championship keeper at all. He had a loss of form (that was clear) but by end of season he was bang up there. The competition for places line was also clearly complete garbage and an outright lie.
It was also 10 million (of yet again clearly a tight budget) that was not necessary to waste. Reina could have exited at tumultuous periods easily over the last few years when he was linked with moves but didn't. He stayed at the club and has always been supportive and decent with the fans. Dunk's piece on this (and he has more insider info than us) is good and totally refutes Faz's drivel about Reina forcing some agent exit. BS.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.
George Washington
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 22,926
Liverpool Legend
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Liverpool Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 22,926 |
Have to disagree on this one Red!
I have to admit I've really got riled about this move, I don't see it as good business just a waste of £10 million and a loan deal where he won't want to come back and the Italians will low ball next year.
I am also not buying the view that he was somehow now at the level of a Championship keeper at all. He had a loss of form (that was clear) but by end of season he was bang up there. The competition for places line was also clearly complete garbage and an outright lie.
It was also 10 million (of yet again clearly a tight budget) that was not necessary to waste. Reina could have exited at tumultuous periods easily over the last few years when he was linked with moves but didn't. He stayed at the club and has always been supportive and decent with the fans. Dunk's piece on this (and he has more insider info than us) is good and totally refutes Faz's drivel about Reina forcing some agent exit. BS.
Agree with you, as I said, given that we do not have a lot of money, this whole saga is costing us around 7-8m (provided Napoli is taking the whole of Reina's wages, if not the the figure is closer to 10m) which could have been used in a better way to reinforce the team. Mignolet might be better than Reina but I don't think, a lot better, as I said the money could have been used to buy a CD or midfielder which would have improved the team in a better way. Don't think that our priority was ever to replace Reina, and this is where we have spent the most. I think that FSG's prime objective is to reduce expenses and they really thought that Reina would hand a transfer request with the arrival of Mignolet and/or he could be sold for at least 10m. It has backfired as Reina probably told them that he wants to wait for Barca to come calling next year when Valdes' contract is over. Penny wise, pound foolish again.
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 8,564
1st Team Squad
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1st Team Squad
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 8,564 |
Reina has two years left on his deal. How is this costing us? We're saving money now, and we can sell him to Barca next year.
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 22,926
Liverpool Legend
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Liverpool Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 22,926 |
Reina has two years left on his deal. How is this costing us? We're saving money now, and we can sell him to Barca next year. These transactions are costing us THIS YEAR as we have paid for Mignolet, money that could have been spent on other prioroties. Yes, it won't cost us overall when we sell Reina probably next season for around 10m, so no effect overall on the statements of accounts of the club (assets of the club have increased with Mignolet with reduction of cash), but, in footballing terms, we have less money to spend on priorities in THIS TRANSFER WINDOW. Now if we do not have a budget constraints to spend on players, I am not annoyed, but I am if otherwise.
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,205
1st Team Squad
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1st Team Squad
Joined: May 2012
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Are you really having a sook over not having the Reina transfer cash this summer???
You're in to deep Vish.
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,824
Under 23 Player
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Under 23 Player
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,824 |
Very long and melodramatic post saying that you basically believe in everything that FSG is doing despite flip flapping a number of times since they took over almost 3 years ago. I wonder if you agreed with what they did in their 1st year or you said then that they were wrong and now they are doing the right thing. What on earth is that supposed to mean?! I don't believe in EVERYTHING FSG do, have done before, continue to do etc. My opinion on FSG has been simple. It is been grounded in sense and logic, not disproportionate amount of fantasy. I said before, this forum only works if people voice not only their opinions, but reasons to justify it. It is fine saying AGREE, or DISAGREE, but life isn't about extremes. There are always going to be people sat on the fence, near the fence etc... There are PROs and CONs to every point of debate. The whole idea is to see light of points other people make, so that you know exactly why they think the way they do. One point shouldn't completely alter your opinion, but if its a good point, it should at least be noted in your own. If you'd like to know, I think my thoughts are the time were not too dissimilar to how I see them now. Adam was a decent punt on a player. Downing, Henderson, Carroll were all vastly over-priced. I think the owners made the right choice moving on Hodgson, albeit, I think I would have let him see out the season (in line with all previous managers at the club). I would then have sought the long-term manager. I think FSG were being short-sighted when they handed Dalglish the job permanently. I thought so at the time too. I didn't believe he was there for anything other than to appease fans, like you, scared of change. They hoped he would close the gap quickly with big investment, but ultimately he proved to be as useless a talent seeker as I am led to believe he was as our manager before, given that he inherited such a strong team, and therefore deserved to leave. After his full season in charge, and his firing, I was bemused at the suggestion of failings by FSG, when they had invested a lot of money, AND time in a manager cherished by most, yet rose-tinted glasses couldn't hide the truth that our football was poor, and our end of season run in the league was the worst I could remember as a fan. The CUP RUNS made fans believe we were on the right track. It was baffling to me then. When Rodgers was hired, I felt he was a better candidate than Martinez. Like most on here, I felt Martinez's inability to make Wigan play well for a full season, and his inabilities to organise a defensive strategy wouldn't have helped us at the time. Rodgers, on the back of great experience at Chelsea, seemed like a good manager worth investing in. Who could we have hired back then? Benitez. I would have liked to see him come back, but at the time, I didn't think he was the best candidate. AVB was the best candidate in my opinion. I have been proven wrong though. I think Benitez struggles struggles to get the best out of players over long periods of time, and sometimes struggles investing in the right person at the right time. I think AVB, because of his Chelsea experience, has become a little disproportionate when he has organised his squad. I could be proven wrong, but I really dislike the make-up of most of his team. He has been proclaimed as a great this year, when Bale has got them out of so many predicaments. Without Suarez, we'd still be 7th. That is the difference. I still find it difficult to understand how it is better for us right now to buy Mignolet and send Reina on LOAN, according to me that money could have been spent where I think our priorities are much bigger. We are definitely not saving money with these moves and I don't think that the team just got much better. For instance, spending that money on central defence of even midfield would have made more sense, but, you seem to believe that this is what was needed right now. What can I say, you should be very happy that we have FSG, good for you. So we invested now, before Reina says he wants to go again. The idea that this would pre-empt Reina wanting to leave is fickle. I already said before, we're playing the long game, not the short one. If there isn't good value in centre-halves, would you spend massive when the risk/success is the same as usual but at a much higher price. We're acting with sense in the market. Mignolet should have cost the same as Begovic. We got him for £5m cheaper, and have tied him down until he's 30. Never mind all that justification I do feel I need to add if anybody is ever going to believe why I think the way I do, but I am sure some people will just type one comment saying disagree with... All I can say is... The TRANSFER WINDOW is open for another 42 DAYS?! And you're moaning about spending a net £7M on a better keeper. Are you kidding me?! Have you forgotten how average Reina has looked for a consistent period of time. He WAS a great player. Why is he on this pedestal. Everyone said before we only need one keeper. Now the club have followed that wish, you're all happy to moan. Its hypocracy. As for being happy with FSG, I love that we have them as owners. Given that I do follow American Sports, albeit less baseball and more football, I do know of their worth to a club. I am just really despising this hatred for them, when I can't see a reason, right now, to be raising the roof over one "fans favourite" playing leaving. One. And he's not exactly been setting the world alight. He has made a lot of mistakes, and his shot-stopping has been poorer for years now. Our football has improved. Our stadium news is close. Our star man is not leaving without a big fee. And we have signed 4 players already - 3 potential starters in Toure, Aspas and Mignolet, and someone to try and improve on an under-whelming Shelvey. That seems like good going to me.
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