KopTalk.com Forums Football Liverpool FC Forum Excellent article about Lucas...

I do agree to an extent. But you can't compare the situation and then say don't compare the players. Based on the players the situation comparison might not be applicable.

Lucas had to improve English, deal with moving continents, adapt to English PL, was BRAZIL's young player of the year, Brazil's U21 U20 U19 Captain at various stages of his early career.

The only one who can claim even remotely similar is Henderson.

I think there's a clear difference in comparing the situation and comparing them as players. In fact, given the facts of all the stuff you just listed about Lucas, and also added to the fact that Lucas got even worse abuse (he got booed on occasions) than any of our curent players, it proves it even more. These facts that you listed which would put Lucas in a more favourable light than the likes of Henderson - nobody cared about those at the time they were criticising and booing him, did they?

Possibly future LFC captain, if he continue to do what he did before injury...

I thought Lucas had talent from the off even when people at anfield were booing him. Whereas Henderson, Carroll, Adam, Downing I cannot see what the deal is. If anyone thinks they are going to be future stars then good luck but I don't see it. You cannot compare lucas to them and they have had more than enough time to prove themselves. We are sitting on a huge loss with all of them so I don't think they will be sold Kenny will be told get them to work or else.

Whilst there is a difference, I fundamentally can't accept the argument that they aren't related. You can't apply the same situation to every player, nor manager etc etc, unless they display some reason to think that the situation might be the same? How do you do that? By comparing the players. That's just my opinion though, not saying its definitely right.

On your "it proves it even more" point, I literally can't see a logical thought process that made you go from point a to point b to make you say that. The facts I listed might suggest some other peoples statements on here about 'these players will never make it look how bad they've been' aren't necessarily true. But that isn't what I said in any way shape or form. As there are a couple of similar debates going on, maybe you mixed them up?

Those facts back up my point that they come from different situations so what's to say the end game situation will be the same for them.

Players who flop initially more often stay flops than 'turn it around'. And without good reason to think they share traits that will allow them to turn it around (by player comparison) there is no reason to think the situations can be compared.

I get the feeling there are crossed wires here somewhere. Basically what I'm saying is that Lucas was a player who early in his career came up against a lot of abuse from LFC fans. He was highly rated at underage level for Brazil, new to England, had a new language to learn, etc, as you pointed out, yet the abuse he got was terrible. The likes of Henderson, Downing, Carroll have got some abuse from LFC fans, but to a much lesser degree (from some people). Some people, I believe, have gone overboard in their condemnation of these players, and I'm just pointing out that people shouldn't be so quick to write off a player after a single season at the club. When you made the point about the arguments that could be used in defence of Lucas's early days, I was making the point that I understand those, and agree, but that it certainly didn't stop him being abused (even worse than the current crop) and that at the time, the people abusing him weren't taking that stuff into account.

good god lucas was crap for years though. he was just a disaster, worse than any of the signings we made this year.

Yeah I was thinking the same, definitely a few wires crossed. I don't disagree with you at all about any of that.

My only points on this thread have been

1. just because Lucas turned it around doesn't mean these guys will (something I know you said as well so I don't think we're disagreeing there either).

and 2. I think it was you, perhaps it wasn't, who said you don't have to compare players to compare situations, whereas I think without comparing the players to a point there is an indication that their 'starting point' or situation is similar (i.e. there was much excitement around Lucas' talent), then comparing where their end point situation mostly just unfounded speculation.

Obviously Lucas a precedent does show, don't be too hard on people because look this guy turned it around to an astonishing extent, and quite frankly booing a player is disgraceful anyway. My 2nd point was really just I don't think comparing situations is fair without first comparing the players to see if their situations might be the same.

As a further point, I can see similarities in hendo and Lucas, both very talented at young levels, their country's u21 captains etc etc. Downing and Carroll, I can't say that about. So whilst we can speculate who knows they might get better, Lucas did, I haven't got a real reason to think these two will do it.

hendo will be the young player of the year next season, and downing the player of the year:)

Yeah, and Kenny will win manager of the year....