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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,163
1st Team Squad
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1st Team Squad
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,163 |
If you replaced Rafa's name with any other manager alive today, the 'perhaps but not necessarily' answer would still apply, so it's not really valid. It's not possible to make a managerail appointment based on what you know for a fact will happen in the future.
And it's ok if you think that Rafa is no longer a top manager, because we're no longer a top club.
Are your reason for not wanting Rafa back based on what he achieved last time or just a stubborn display of foot stamping because so many people have had enough of kenny?
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,163
1st Team Squad
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1st Team Squad
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,163 |
I'd like to take a crack at those questions mighty.
Yes I think rafa would have bought and brought in better players with the same money.
There is absolutely no reason to think Rafa WOULD undoubtedly have won had he been properly backed. Personally in the season we finished 2nd if he had the opportunity to buy a top striker in jan to supplement the squad then yes I do believe we would have won. But that certainly isn't fact, its actually far from it. Who knows if he would have bought the right player in. And we have seen teams like United raise their game based on their opponents. City have spent a lot more and arguably have a much better team sheet...United are still topping the league at the bussiness end of the season.
Yes I think Rafa is probably the better tactician, but I don't think Steve Clarke is that bad either mate. Kenny has had success as a manager, that isn't a fluke. A better question is has he got the tactics for the modern game? An interesting question because I would argue his buys suggest the way he sees football might be out dated.
So you have a mix of rafa over kenny answers there, I would say I think on the basis of the small amount of recent data I have for Kenny, Rafa seems to be the better modern manager. But I certainly wouldn't give Rafa the chance to manage us again. We have seen looking backwards doesn't work. We must look forwards and look for something new and fresh so teams haven't got us worked out right from the first game of the season.
I agree with KP that Rafa did fail in his main objective and maybe there are confounding variables that added to that, but Rafa got more than enough things wrong for me to think you are seeing him through rose tinted spectacles. Good points... except I don't think Kenny's vision of 'pass n move' is outdated at all... a lot of European teams have been very effective with it lately. I just don't think we quite have the players for the system. You need at least one skill player like Silva, Modric, or Aquilani to be a midfield lynch pin. You need some speed out wide... and quick thinking forwards. I think Suarez has the mental speed but Carroll doesn't. We have too many similar players... or players with only one or two gears. These players slow our transition game down and then 'pass n move' becomes 'slow n telegraphed.' But there are things we can build on. Agger and Coates look like good ball-playing centre backs if we can keep Agger healthy. Stevie and Suarez have an understanding.... Bellamy and Maxi seemed to be on their wavelength some of the time. But we really need a proper right winger, a playmaker (preferably world class), and a lethal goal scorer with a quick mind. Kenny's struggle is not necessarily his tactics - but his choice of personnel. He thought Adam was the new Souness... and Henderson the next Ray Kennedy. Neither of them are nowhere near. But Downing shows promise if he can stay on the left and find a final ball... so the team isn't a complete write off. Everything depends on who they bring in this summer. Get the above positions sorted and it'll make a massive difference.... stand pat with the players we have and we will continue to disappoint. 
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Joined: Jul 2011
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Under 23 Player
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Under 23 Player
Joined: Jul 2011
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I'd like to take a crack at those questions mighty.
Yes I think rafa would have bought and brought in better players with the same money.
There is absolutely no reason to think Rafa WOULD undoubtedly have won had he been properly backed. Personally in the season we finished 2nd if he had the opportunity to buy a top striker in jan to supplement the squad then yes I do believe we would have won. But that certainly isn't fact, its actually far from it. Who knows if he would have bought the right player in. And we have seen teams like United raise their game based on their opponents. City have spent a lot more and arguably have a much better team sheet...United are still topping the league at the bussiness end of the season.
Yes I think Rafa is probably the better tactician, but I don't think Steve Clarke is that bad either mate. Kenny has had success as a manager, that isn't a fluke. A better question is has he got the tactics for the modern game? An interesting question because I would argue his buys suggest the way he sees football might be out dated.
So you have a mix of rafa over kenny answers there, I would say I think on the basis of the small amount of recent data I have for Kenny, Rafa seems to be the better modern manager. But I certainly wouldn't give Rafa the chance to manage us again. We have seen looking backwards doesn't work. We must look forwards and look for something new and fresh so teams haven't got us worked out right from the first game of the season.
I agree with KP that Rafa did fail in his main objective and maybe there are confounding variables that added to that, but Rafa got more than enough things wrong for me to think you are seeing him through rose tinted spectacles. Good points... except I don't think Kenny's vision of 'pass n move' is outdated at all... a lot of European teams have been very effective with it lately. I just don't think we quite have the players for the system. You need at least one skill player like Silva, Modric, or Aquilani to be a midfield lynch pin. You need some speed out wide... and quick thinking forwards. I think Suarez has the mental speed but Carroll doesn't. We have too many similar players... or players with only one or two gears. These players slow our transition game down and then 'pass n move' becomes 'slow n telegraphed.' But there are things we can build on. Agger and Coates look like good ball-playing centre backs if we can keep Agger healthy. Stevie and Suarez have an understanding.... Bellamy and Maxi seemed to be on their wavelength some of the time. But we really need a proper right winger, a playmaker (preferably world class), and a lethal goal scorer with a quick mind. Kenny's struggle is not necessarily his tactics - but his choice of personnel. He thought Adam was the new Souness... and Henderson the next Ray Kennedy. Neither of them are nowhere near. But Downing shows promise if he can stay on the left and find a final ball... so the team isn't a complete write off. Everything depends on who they bring in this summer. Get the above positions sorted and it'll make a massive difference.... stand pat with the players we have and we will continue to disappoint. That is a good point actually, the pass and move part of the game is still the best choice for fans of beautiful football, and its what barca are based on. I was (quite blikeredly) thinking about Carroll and suarez big man small man choice of a partnership when I said outdated, so too the british players will die for you when johnny foreigner will not. Cause no one can try and tell me any of our english players bar Gerrard sometimes works as hard as Kuyt. But as you said, it could be equally down to suarez is the wrong compliment in the 'big man small man partnership' just as carroll is and never was going to be the ian rush to suarez's creator. The signings just seem like Kenny didn't know what plan to go for.
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,381
Under 23 Player
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Under 23 Player
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,381 |
If you replaced Rafa's name with any other manager alive today, the 'perhaps but not necessarily' answer would still apply, so it's not really valid. It's not possible to make a managerail appointment based on what you know for a fact will happen in the future.
And it's ok if you think that Rafa is no longer a top manager, because we're no longer a top club.
Are your reason for not wanting Rafa back based on what he achieved last time or just a stubborn display of foot stamping because so many people have had enough of kenny? Personally, whilst I am in agreement with you on Kenny, my main objection to Rafa is 1. I would rather move forward with something new than back to something that had mixed (albeit mostly decent) success (baring in mind he did fail his no.1 objective). Something the top managers have seen already and worked out how to deal with seasons ago. 2. Whilst I do wish Rafa was given net spend backing during his tenure to see if that would have made the difference, there is no reason to think it definitely would have. Nor is there any reason to give him the job again. As my starting point is a preference for somebody new, it would take some considerable weighting and evidence from Rafa's time for me to think ah ok Rafa again over something new. And there isn't anything. I'm a big Rafa fan, and I think his achievements (whilst not always in trophy form) are often underestimated especially given a net spend of 10 million a year (averaged out), but like I thought when Kenny got the job, the past is the past and is always viewed with eyes that omit important details. I think the past should have stayed where it was then, and I think the same again now with regards to rafa.
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 204
Under 16 Player
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Under 16 Player
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 204 |
why are we talking about who to choose in the future?
Can someone tells me who is willing to come to Liverpool??
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,163
1st Team Squad
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1st Team Squad
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,163 |
Hmmm, are you suggesting that no one will come to manage Liverpool Football Club so we have to stick with Kenny forever? Please say no!
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,988
1st Team Regular
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1st Team Regular
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,988 |
why are we talking about who to choose in the future?
Can someone tells me who is willing to come to Liverpool?? Every manager has his price mate, its not impossible.
Back to Back World Champions baby!
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,163
1st Team Squad
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1st Team Squad
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,163 |
Like most players, most managers would probably love the opportunity to test themselves in the world's richest and most exposed league. Whilst we may not be able to offer them the chance to manage in the CL next year, they will still have European football and it is up to 'them' to get us into the CL. Supposing a top manager has his sights set on the premier league, more often than not his preference of clubs will start at the top and work down. Let's put that into practice - supposing Joachim Low wanted to come here, his top choices would be:
Man Utd - Ferguson is going nowhere just yet so that's a NO
Man City - Mancini doing very well, probably a year ahead of schedule, so NO
Arsenal - looking good again and Wenger is going nowhere, another NO
Chelsea - on the lookout for a new manager, so YES
Tottenham - Redknapp possibly leaving, so we'll call that a YES
Newcastle - doing superbly, so why would they change manager? NO
LIVERPOOL - possibly looking for a new manager, so YES
Sunderland - doing very well under recently appointed manager, so NO
Everton - seem happy with Moyes and pottering along un-notice, so NO
Swansea - doing very well so not looking to change manager, a final NO
So that leaves Liverpool, Chelsea & Tottenham as the only serious contenders for any top manager looking for a big club in the premier league. I won't argue the pros & cons of each as bias is bound to show through and unbalance my point - suffice to say though, that there are a LOT of very good managers around but only 3 possible destinations in the UK for them. Therefore, we have every chance of landing a top manager as long as we do what we're not well known for, and act quickly and decisively.
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 204
Under 16 Player
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Under 16 Player
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 204 |
why are we talking about who to choose in the future?
Can someone tells me who is willing to come to Liverpool?? Every manager has his price mate, its not impossible. Yes i agree everything is possible. That s why i use the word willing..
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 781
Under 18 Player
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Under 18 Player
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 781 |
The only way lfc will get a new manager is to dig deep in there pockets and they will have to spend big money to get a top manager i just fear it might take a further £100m to get us top 4 football as the last £113m was waisted which begs the question would u give it to kenny? NO id bring rafa in temporary for 1 season and see where we sit after that.
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