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Joined: Oct 2009
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Originally Posted By: AvailableOnAFree
I for one have no sympathy for Terry whatsoever. Anyone who uses language like that (regardless of who reports it and what their motives are for doing so - that is not the issue at all) is not fit to lead a multi-ethnic country like England in any capacity. The fact of the matter is that Terry used unacceptable language which was there for all to see. Are you really bothered that Terry might not be England's manager now? I for one would be embarrassed if he were to represent my country at such a high level. That kind of language has no place in our society and is completely un-called for and unwarranted.


Terry is inncocent the trial is July however it would seem the verdict is already complete. This is a prime example of what I am talking about. If you were am ordinary Joe in an office or factory (guilty or not) and a colleague accused you of racism (just accused) your life woould be ruined. For people are not daft Avaliable on a free what do you think future reactions are likely to be? I will tell you avoid, avoid, avoid how is that a fair society?


IF YOU WANT TO BE HEARD SPEAK SOFTLY - BOB PAISLEY
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if terry's england career is ruined, or he has to suffer other consequences, so be it. it doesn't really matter who reported it. if a man in the street does it, the fine is £2500 if terry does it its £2500. the laws max punishment doesn't take occupation into account in this. your point is that because terry is in the public eye, society will annihilate him. my point is, he knows it's worng to say, he knows he's england captain, he knows there's 16 cameras in the ground. he is aware of all the consequences and he still did it. tough sh!t

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I think it was clear for all to see that Terry used racially abusive language. If you want to suspend doubt and ignore what's staring you in the face that's fine but there's really no question as far as I'm concerned.

And if I were found accused of using racially abusive language myself, instead of avoiding minorities, here's an idea: apologize for any offense you may have caused and stop using that language in the future. Maybe seek to build bridges instead of burning them. You don't have to withdraw from all relations with minorities. As long as you're a decent person there's really no need for anyone to accuse you of racism. The fact that avoiding minorities is the first thing that springs to your mind says quite a bit.


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Originally Posted By: drome
They are the most discriminated of all in our society. No ism to hide behind or claim victim status. This grouping has no rights whatsoever. We are a very unequal society and there is a clear hierachy of victim status. If you are disabled, black, lesbian you have hit the jackpot. White hetrosexual, male and able bodied you are at the bottom of the pile.

Yours Sincerely,
Nick Griffin

I hope you're being sarcastic, because if not that is the most insane statement I've ever read. How many more advantages could a white man possibly have? If I had a time machine, and I was going to take a black friend with me he would say,"If you're going anywhere before 1990 I don't want to go".

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read back over the thread there solar and come back to me and say "oh, i see what i did there".

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Off topic, soz, but congrats to both Stan and Drome for conducting an arguement/discussion with differing views, without the usual slagging off and name calling.

Most refreshing, bit like the two coconuts I have the greatest of pleasures awarding you both! laugh

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Originally Posted By: AvailableOnAFree
I think it was clear for all to see that Terry used racially abusive language. If you want to suspend doubt and ignore what's staring you in the face that's fine but there's really no question as far as I'm concerned.

And if I were found accused of using racially abusive language myself, instead of avoiding minorities, here's an idea: apologize for any offense you may have caused and stop using that language in the future. Maybe seek to build bridges instead of burning them. You don't have to withdraw from all relations with minorities. As long as you're a decent person there's really no need for anyone to accuse you of racism. The fact that avoiding minorities is the first thing that springs to your mind says quite a bit.


If I used racially abusive language well yes. But two points first what I I did not use racially abusive language what if I said nothing whatsoever and the accusation was malicious? I would still be guilty and you would judge, jury and jail me. The second point is what is racially abusive language? Well the law tells us it is anything perceived to be so. So as the offender you are entirely at the mercy of the offendee's propensity to be offended. And as we know some people can be mighty offended if it suits them or profers an advantage. I am not sure of your position on this are you suggesting a free for all where any accusation can be made. Then we are back to the fifteenth century and accusing your neighbour of witchcraft


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Originally Posted By: Growler
Off topic, soz, but congrats to both Stan and Drome for conducting an arguement/discussion with differing views, without the usual slagging off and name calling.

Most refreshing, bit like the two coconuts I have the greatest of pleasures awarding you both! laugh


that's where you're worng growls. me and stan met up at lunch time and kicked seven shades of sh!t out of each other.

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Originally Posted By: Stanley Park
Originally Posted By: AvailableOnAFree
I think it was clear for all to see that Terry used racially abusive language. If you want to suspend doubt and ignore what's staring you in the face that's fine but there's really no question as far as I'm concerned.

And if I were found accused of using racially abusive language myself, instead of avoiding minorities, here's an idea: apologize for any offense you may have caused and stop using that language in the future. Maybe seek to build bridges instead of burning them. You don't have to withdraw from all relations with minorities. As long as you're a decent person there's really no need for anyone to accuse you of racism. The fact that avoiding minorities is the first thing that springs to your mind says quite a bit.


If I used racially abusive language well yes. But two points first what I I did not use racially abusive language what if I said nothing whatsoever and the accusation was malicious? I would still be guilty and you would judge, jury and jail me. The second point is what is racially abusive language? Well the law tells us it is anything perceived to be so. So as the offender you are entirely at the mercy of the offendee's propensity to be offended. And as we know some people can be mighty offended if it suits them or profers an advantage. I am not sure of your position on this are you suggesting a free for all where any accusation can be made. Then we are back to the fifteenth century and accusing your neighbour of witchcraft



OK, this thread is veering off into territory completely unrelated to football so I'll attempt to address your concerns while still keeping things relevant.

Consider the following situation:

My university team was playing one of our most heated rivals. One of our players went in hard on one of their (black) players. It was a pretty rough challenge and a foul was called. Some words were exchanged between the two players, but the tackle was made near the corner flag, so no one could hear but those two players. Out of nowhere, their player became hysterical, crying out that our player had called him a racist name. He was absolutely incredulous, and went straight to the referee. Now, it's one man's word against another, so we can't be sure who said what to whom. So we have a few options:

Call it a stalemate and punish no one. Seems fair at first blush, but has the unintended effect of potentially allowing racist abuse to go unchecked when it occurs privately between two parties. Basically, any time it's one man's word against another, each would have carte blanche to say whatever the liked, because no one would be punished for doing so. This is not the message we want to send in society.

Punish the reporting person. On the plus side, this would seem to discourage the sort of malicious fabrication of racist abuse that you're referring to. But there's a downside, and that is, people would be discouraged from reporting racist abuse on a wholesale level. Even if Terry called Ferdinand every racial name under the sun, Ferdinand, the victim, would have no recourse. This is a terrible situation to be in, and we would be punishing an innocent person.

Punish the alleged abuser. This has a very obvious drawback, that you pointed out - we would sometimes be punishing an innocent man. But, it has a few consequences that could be beneficial. First, it discourages racial conflicts. Basically, if I know that I will be punished for being accused of racism, then it's rational that I would try to avoid conflict. I would do everything in my power not to give someone a reason to accuse me of racism. Second, when racial abuse does occur and is reported, it would be invariably punished. This sends a clear message to people that this sort of behavior is not to be tolerated at all.

So in the end, you could view it as a cost-benefit analysis. In that case, it could depend on what you value more highly - protecting the innocent or punishing the guilty. But it's still not that simple, because if you always protect the innocent, you'll be inviting more abuse. If you always punish the guilty, you'll be condemning innocent men. On the whole, I think society opts for the third choice because, despite your claims to the contrary, instances of racial and other kinds of abuse vastly, and I mean vastly, outnumber false reporting. Why do you think the story you brought up about the copper was so publicized? Because it's exceptional. Instances like that don't occur very often, and when they do, they don't occur on that scale.

Your analogy between reporting racism and witchcraft is an interesting one, but it doesn't really apply. I think we can all agree that racism in any form is bad. Witchcraft, on the other hand, not so much. Most of the time, these women were simply accused of being a bit strange and perhaps not Puritanical enough (I'm referring specifically to the Salem witch trials here).

As for what constitutes offensive language, that is a whole other can of worms that I do not need to open on this thread, not least of all because it is completely unrelated to the topic. I think we can all agree that, if Terry said what he is alleged to have said, that is offensive.


YNWA
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Originally Posted By: drome
Originally Posted By: Growler
Off topic, soz, but congrats to both Stan and Drome for conducting an arguement/discussion with differing views, without the usual slagging off and name calling.

Most refreshing, bit like the two coconuts I have the greatest of pleasures awarding you both! laugh


that's where you're worng growls. me and stan met up at lunch time and kicked seven shades of sh!t out of each other.


D'ya know, I NEVER knew there were that many shades tbqh. shocked

Wonder if they call each other racist names depending on their particular shade and colour. crazy

Meanwhile, I see our Yankee...SORRY, blush American friend has joined on in this most interesting and properly conducted discussion.

Do carry on.

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