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Joined: Apr 2011
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I wouldn’t have included you in the blind faither group – in start contrast toi most of them you have intelligent and well-honed arguments – until I read the ‘I think we are doing just fine’ bit of your previous post
The problem I have with this Nani comparison is that we’ve heard it so many times before – it was said about Cheyrou, Le Tallec, Morientes – who all had poor first seasons and never found their form at Liverpool
Whatever one says about Ferguson he is a manager who has a pretty good track record of getting the best out of his players, eventually.
Playing attacking football can only be cited as a positive if it results in winning games and the home draws we got against the inferior Sunderland, Norwich and Swansea show that it’s not
Our team does look more exciting than any time since the Roy Evans days – but the menb who succedded him 9houlier and Rafa) were far more successful than he ever was – and their success was based on a solid defence, something we don’t have at the moment
Saying we are moving in the right direction when we’re lying 6th in the table, not even in Europe and on the back of a 0-0 draw in front our own fans, when just two and half years ago we were riding high in the champions League and challenging for the title – is a lie of shameful proportions
No ones saying our football is as dour as it was under the fag end of Rafa’s reign and throughout Hodgson’s, but given that our results have barely improved (and after a kind start to the season too) that’s a moot point
You say Aquilani was not a player who can do well in the PL but he was hardly given the chance. When you spend £20m on a player it seems utterly bizarre to restrict his appearances to about 15 or so in the league (I thought he looked okay tbh) then ship him out on loan hoping to persuade the club he’s gone to to sign him up on the cheap once his loan has expired. How that equates to a ‘good bit of business; is beyond me. And letting the quality Merieles go for less than what we paid for Henderson is shameful. All this talk about money is a smokescreen – he wanted to stay; the club wanted him out because they thought Henderson was better
And to say Adam has done well is stretching the truth a little too. He’s done okay (at least compared to Henderson, Carroll and Downing) – but no more
It’s not a case of coming down on Kenny and the players – but being worried that things haven’t panned out the way some on this forum were insisting they would
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Joined: Jun 2011
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I can agree with the last sentence you wrote there but TBH I think the intelligent members were well aware we weren't gonna win the title this season, so those who were raving on about that have to be put in the same group as those who predict only doom and gloom. They are the extremes. As far as me saying that we are moving the right direction goes, I base that on the fact that we are doing ok in the PL, I know we are 6th but we are not far off 4th, only 3 points. The fact that we don't have any european football this season is mostly down to the happenings of last season, before Kenny took over. So as far as that is concerned, i think we are moving up. I don't think there is a chance of us finishing below 6th tbh and that would guarantee at least Europa league football, which in it's own is an improvement on last season. Our progress in the cup has also been better than last season. Whilst i understand what you are saying about attacking football meaning nothing if you don't get the points, i can't really agree. If for no other reason, surely the supporters who pay to watch the games would rather watch us now than when we were play defensively and hoof the ball forward football. If we just carry on the way we have, with a slight improvement, or perhaps a more lethal striker than Andy has proven to be so far, we could see a drastic change in our position on the table, and the same applies if Andy suddenly hits form and starts netting. A year ago I felt that a drastic change was needed and a lot of improvement, nowa I feel that only a slight improvement or change of luck is needed to get us up where we aspire to be. 
Sign Reus
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Oh my God a civil argument. I can't believe my eyes.
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Joined: Apr 2011
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Under 18 Player
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Under 18 Player
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As a Liverpool fan Marko you should be in agreement with me that 6th in the league does not equate to 'doing okay' and I'm staggered that a loyal fan like yourself would argue such
We finished 6th last season and didn’t get into Europe, so finishing in that spot doesn’t guarantee entry to Europe – and let’s bear in mind that in the last few decades we have missed out on Europe only twice – last season and following the debacle of the 1998-1999 campaign.
We can’t keep going on 'if only this happened or that happened' it will be okay, wilfully ignoring the fact that they haven’t happened and we are where we are
As I’ve said previously, the football we are currently playing is nowhere near as good as that we were playing towards the end of last season when we will literally blowing teams away – from Man City to Man Utd. Why Daglish would want to disrupt that by replacing quality players with inferior ones (and paying for the priviledge) is anyone’s guess but that’s clearly why we are not meeting the heights of last season – and that’s down to Daglish and Comoli and the fact that neither is a good judge of player – an accusation always thrown at Rafa (and a fair one too)
As for the latest entertaining article from Martin Hole I’d say I agree that the appeal of CL football is a significant factor in player recruitment that should not be underestimated, but hey, Rafa was a good enough manager to ensure we always got in the top four and the only time we didn’t (apart from his last season) was when we won it. So give him credit for that at least
As for this argument that Rafa achieved what he did when the Premier league was a completely different landscape, it’s true to an extent but just as City and Tottenham are better than what they were during Rafa’s day, it is equally true that Chelsea, and certainly Arsenal, aren’t - so overall it's not that radically different
I agree that the Daglish v Rafa argument is redundant 9at the moment anyway) and I think Rafa took the team as far as he could and it was right for him to go. I also agree it’s nonsense arguing Daglish should be sacked
What I do object to is posts that imply it's all good, we’re doing really well and moving in the right direction when all the evidence suggests we’re not
And what i object to most is all these people who take a pop shot at Rafa whilst conveniently ignoring the fact that his Liverpool team was far, far superior to the current one – I don’t think anyone can even dispute that – but how typical of Liverpool fans to give it a try
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Joined: Jun 2011
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You have some valid points, but again, some I have to argue. Firstly, I myself agree with you as far as Rafa is concerned. I have great respect for him and think he is a top class manager, but he left at a time when there was no other option. I also wouldn't want to bring him back now as I feel that there is no need for that at the moment.
When it comes to us replacing some of the p[layers from last season though, I think we did what we had to do, whether Henderson or Downing or anyone of the new guys is capable of filling the shoes of the players who left, remains to be seen though. I think Adam is doing a good job and the stats seem to show that too. However stats can be decieving.
I know you feel that us currently lying in 6th is really bad, but I feel it's round about where we deserve to be at the moment, with the main difference being, that I fel we can only improve on that. As the players gel more and more I feel we will climb the ladder and will probably be in the top 4. Let's bear in mind where we were at this stage last season, pretty far of 6th if I remember correctly. For me, that represents improvement. We are a squad which is traditionally stronger in the 2nd half of the season and I feel that the same will be true this season. Something unusual perhaps is that United got of to such a strong start this season, as they have usually been slow starters. However that bears no influence on us. We don't have the means to compete with city at the moment as far as the transfer market goes and obviously not being able to offer CL football is a huge hurdle in the transfer market. I am sure Kenny would love to bring in Sneijder and Silva and so on but has been able to... Given the players that we have at our disposal, and with the feeling that we can only improve and will improve throughout the season, I see reason to be optimistic about where we will eventually finish in the league.
As far as Rafa's team being superior, well, I don't think we can really even compare the two as they are completely different, with different styles. Who knows what the story would be if Torres was still playing for us and slotting away chances that Andy has missed.
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Under 18 Player
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You have some valid points, but again, some I have to argue. Firstly, I myself agree with you as far as Rafa is concerned. I have great respect for him and think he is a top class manager, but he left at a time when there was no other option. I also wouldn't want to bring him back now as I feel that there is no need for that at the moment.
When it comes to us replacing some of the p[layers from last season though, I think we did what we had to do, whether Henderson or Downing or anyone of the new guys is capable of filling the shoes of the players who left, remains to be seen though. I think Adam is doing a good job and the stats seem to show that too. However stats can be decieving.
I know you feel that us currently lying in 6th is really bad, but I feel it's round about where we deserve to be at the moment, with the main difference being, that I fel we can only improve on that. As the players gel more and more I feel we will climb the ladder and will probably be in the top 4. Let's bear in mind where we were at this stage last season, pretty far of 6th if I remember correctly. For me, that represents improvement. We are a squad which is traditionally stronger in the 2nd half of the season and I feel that the same will be true this season. Something unusual perhaps is that United got of to such a strong start this season, as they have usually been slow starters. However that bears no influence on us. We don't have the means to compete with city at the moment as far as the transfer market goes and obviously not being able to offer CL football is a huge hurdle in the transfer market. I am sure Kenny would love to bring in Sneijder and Silva and so on but has been able to... Given the players that we have at our disposal, and with the feeling that we can only improve and will improve throughout the season, I see reason to be optimistic about where we will eventually finish in the league.
As far as Rafa's team being superior, well, I don't think we can really even compare the two as they are completely different, with different styles. Who knows what the story would be if Torres was still playing for us and slotting away chances that Andy has missed. Fair points Marko - although my whole problem is that I don't believe most of the players we signed over summer and before - Hendo, Dowmning, Carroll, Coates - are capable of helping us achieve a top 4 finish - whilst most of the players Rafa signed - Alonso, Luis Garcia, Reina, Torres, Mascherano - were But as you say, let's see how things pan out - although as things currently stand I just don't see us fnishing in that top 4 slot - and that can only be classified as failure
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thundyr
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thundyr
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Before we ask what should be changed we need to understand whether what we're trying to change needs fixing or not. After all, most of us understand that there are only two major flaws in the current LFC side, but several ways to fix them. The only thing we need to bear in mind is that a draw at Anfield against any side is basically a loss. The log order at the end of each season very closely follows who won more games - if you're not winning, you're not competing. Sorry to burst that bubble, but it has to be said. Drawing against promoted sides at home? Pathetic, sorry. Credit to them for coming here and taking a point, but it ranks up there with the Havant and Waterloos of our history.
Our issues then:
1. Defensively unsound. I don't know about you guys, but when I see a back 4 containing Johnson, Carra, and Skrtel I'm not confident enough to say we will keep a clean sheet. While none of these players is bad individually, they simply don't function well enough as a unit. Coates was bought in as a long-term CB replacement, and we have Wilson and Kelly who are in the same boat, but the truth is that we have no plan B without Agger, and frankly Kelly is the better RB (in terms of his actual results rather than in which age category he dons the England shirt). Ultimately, Agger will struggle to play half the remaining season, and that means we will keep at most a clean sheet in 3 games unless FSG allow Kenny to buy the ready-made CB I wanted them to in the summer. We didn't need Henderson as much as we needed Cahill or Sakho, for example, and that's not based on his performances thus far in red, simply that we had too many midfielders and not enough defenders.
My change: play Kelly, and beg for more money in January.
2. Don't convert enough chances. Given that we concede a goal a game, if we want to win games we need to be scoring at least 2 ourselves, and at the rate we miss chances we don't. It should be noted here that our summer purchase plan was entirely around creating chances, and as such can only be said to have been successful. Actually putting these chances in the back of the net was not something I think anyone really thought about; it should just have followed, statistically anyway. Is this Andy Carroll's fault? Henderson's fault? Downing's fault? Suarez's fault? After all, the Uruguayan has no trouble knocking them in for his country (or for Ajax). Maybe his contribution is moot anyway given that he may be the fall guy in order for the FA to save face by not banning John Terry. One also needs to understand that we've been winning away of late, but struggling at home - an atypical Liverpool side to say the least. Scoring goals is largely about technique and composure, and you can't get the latter without a long run in the side. Besides, name another target man who at 22 scored 15+ goals in a season. You might take some time to find one...
My change: I wouldn't change anything really - keep Suarez and Carroll together, but maybe rest Downing and play Bellamy, and get them to hit their crosses a bit further from the 'keeper.
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Joined: Jun 2011
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Hey Thundyr, I see you are a fan from SA. Howzit?
Anyways, while i can agree with some of your points, I don't agree that we don't have a strong enough back 4. I think that we are defensively solid and that Skrtel has been immense, and the stats seem to agree with that view. Agger is an important player for us and as much as I know people will hate me for saying this, I think it is time that Carragher starts on the bench. He is lacking pace and it has cost us on more than one occassion. I don't think there is any need for Cahill, especially seeing how he is performing this season and I don't think we will even be looking at him in January now that we have Coates. If you compare Carragher and Skrtel so far this season, Carragher has made 12 tackles and won 58.3 % of them, he has 58 clearances and 4 blocks. In stark contrast to that, Skrtel has had 13 tackles but with 92.3% of those tackles won, 47 clearances and 7 blocks. The stats are clearly showing that Skrtel has had a big contribution so far. In addition to that, they have played the same number of games, with Carra actually playing 70 minutes more football. Carragher has won 60.1% of his aerial duels while Skrtel has won 82.4%. I think you can see my point.
The only stats that are really worrying me at the moment are our conversion rates and completed crosses. Out of 233 crosses attempted so far this season, only 49 have been completed. That could point the finger at our wingers, namely Downing to be precise as he has attempted most of those crosses. I think at the moment he is not performing as expected and needs to be replaced until he hits form.
I most definately cannot agree that a draw equates to a loss though and you have to understand that newly promoted or not, Norwichh and Swansea are premier league teams now and deservedly so. Of course I feel we should be beating them at home, but i cannot equate them to the waterloos and so on. Pn the point of technique and composure, I feel it is composure which is the most important, and that you can gain composure with a decent run in the first team, but technique is not something you get by playing several games in a row. Either you have good technique or you don't, the only way to improve it is on the training ground.
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thundyr
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thundyr
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Yo, Marko. Am in Durban. You? My concern over Skrtel is not so much whether or not he wins a header or blocks a shot, but how many times his won header goes directly to an unmarked member of the opposing team, how many times he zigs when the ball carrier zags, how many times he's out of position at set pieces etc. I'm sure you'll find he looks significantly more average once those are taken into consideration. If you're interested in statistics, you'll also find that Agger and Carra, not Agger and Skrtel are the more effective partnership ( here). The draw equals loss statement perhaps requires an explanation. In terms of finishing up the table, a win is the most critical stat by a significant degree. If you go back through the years, the team with the most wins lifts the trophy at the end of the season. The teams that fill out the rest of the top 4 are also ordered by their number of victories. It's that simple, really. Most (eg those of the Roy Hodgson school of thought) think the rule is "how many games you do not lose", but this is false. In terms of finishing in the top 4, there really is only one distinction - how many games you won. In such a scenario, a draw might as well have been a loss. Have a look at last season's table. The only places draws actually make any difference are with teams with an extraordinary number of draws (Spurs, Fulham, Wigan, the 3 teams with the most draws outside Everton). One might say we lost out on a European spot because Spurs had 14 Draws and 8 losses to our 7 draws and 14 losses, but in fact had we won at Anfield in the penultimate game of the season against them rather than losing we would have finished 5th comfortably. So you see, it's not about the 7 games we didn't draw, but rather about the one game we didn't win. Over a season of 38 games. As for the comparison to Havant and Waterloo, the draws with Norwich and Swansea are of similar importance to our season, not that these clubs play with the same level of ability. We needed the 6 points there, but we got only 2. 4 more points sees us in 4th ahead of Chelsea, for reference, rather than 6th on goal difference over Arsenal who look more accomplished each week. It's all a matter of perspective, I guess.
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,595
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Before we ask what should be changed we need to understand whether what we're trying to change needs fixing or not. After all, most of us understand that there are only two major flaws in the current LFC side, but several ways to fix them. The only thing we need to bear in mind is that a draw at Anfield against any side is basically a loss. The log order at the end of each season very closely follows who won more games - if you're not winning, you're not competing. Sorry to burst that bubble, but it has to be said. Drawing against promoted sides at home? Pathetic, sorry. Credit to them for coming here and taking a point, but it ranks up there with the Havant and Waterloos of our history.
Our issues then:
1. Defensively unsound. I don't know about you guys, but when I see a back 4 containing Johnson, Carra, and Skrtel I'm not confident enough to say we will keep a clean sheet. While none of these players is bad individually, they simply don't function well enough as a unit. Coates was bought in as a long-term CB replacement, and we have Wilson and Kelly who are in the same boat, but the truth is that we have no plan B without Agger, and frankly Kelly is the better RB (in terms of his actual results rather than in which age category he dons the England shirt). Ultimately, Agger will struggle to play half the remaining season, and that means we will keep at most a clean sheet in 3 games unless FSG allow Kenny to buy the ready-made CB I wanted them to in the summer. We didn't need Henderson as much as we needed Cahill or Sakho, for example, and that's not based on his performances thus far in red, simply that we had too many midfielders and not enough defenders.
My change: play Kelly, and beg for more money in January.
2. Don't convert enough chances. Given that we concede a goal a game, if we want to win games we need to be scoring at least 2 ourselves, and at the rate we miss chances we don't. It should be noted here that our summer purchase plan was entirely around creating chances, and as such can only be said to have been successful. Actually putting these chances in the back of the net was not something I think anyone really thought about; it should just have followed, statistically anyway. Is this Andy Carroll's fault? Henderson's fault? Downing's fault? Suarez's fault? After all, the Uruguayan has no trouble knocking them in for his country (or for Ajax). Maybe his contribution is moot anyway given that he may be the fall guy in order for the FA to save face by not banning John Terry. One also needs to understand that we've been winning away of late, but struggling at home - an atypical Liverpool side to say the least. Scoring goals is largely about technique and composure, and you can't get the latter without a long run in the side. Besides, name another target man who at 22 scored 15+ goals in a season. You might take some time to find one...
My change: I wouldn't change anything really - keep Suarez and Carroll together, but maybe rest Downing and play Bellamy, and get them to hit their crosses a bit further from the 'keeper. Fully agree and could have written that almost word for word myself Thundyr, and have written bits of it on other threads. I would add one thing to your post though, (at the risk of repeating myself too often) and that is that we need to push up more when we have the ball, we are not supporting our strikers, as a result they are harried and hustled into snatching their shots. If we get more players in and around the box and the goals will come.
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