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Harvard epidemiologist says coronavirus is "thermonuclear pandemic level bad"

Dr. Eric Feigl-Ding, a Harvard-trained epidemiologist who taught at the school for 15 years, published his alarming analysis of the coronavirus outbreak on Twitter Saturday, calling the virus "thermonuclear pandemic level bad" and declaring "I really hate to be the epidemiologist who has to admit this, but we are potentially faced with an unchecked pandemic that the world has not seen since the 1918 Spanish Influenza."

Below is the compiled text from his Twitter thread:

HOLY MOTHER OF G*D - the new coronavirus is a 3.8!!! How bad is that reproductive R0 value? It is thermonuclear pandemic level bad - never seen an actual virality coefficient outside of Twitter in my entire career. I'm not exaggerating...

"We estimate the basic reproduction number of the infection (R_0) to be 3.8 (95% confidence interval, 3.6-4.0), indicating that 72-75% of transmissions must be prevented by control measures for infections to stop increasing. We estimate that only 5.1% (95%CI, 4.8-5.5) of infections in Wuhan are identified, and by 21 January a total of 11,341 people (prediction interval, 9,217-14,245) had been infected in Wuhan since the start of the year. Should the epidemic continue unabated in Wuhan we predict the epidemic in Wuhan will be substantially larger by 4 February (191,529 infections; prediction interval, 132,751-273,649), infection will be established in other Chinese cities, and importations to other countries will be more frequent. Our model suggests that travel restrictions from and to Wuhan city are unlikely to be effective in halting transmission across China; with a 99% effective reduction in travel, the size of the epidemic outside of Wuhan may only be reduced by 24.9% on 4 February. Our findings are critically dependent on the assumptions underpinning our model, and the timing and reporting of confirmed cases, and there is considerable uncertainty associated with the outbreak at this early stage. With these caveats in mind, our work suggests that a basic reproductive number for this 2019-nCoV outbreak is higher compared to other emergent coronaviruses, suggesting that containment or control of this pathogen may be substantially more difficult."!!!!

SUMMARY: so what does this mean for the world??? We are now faced with the most virulent virus 🦠 epidemic the world has ever seen. An R0=3.8 means that it exceeds SARS's modest 0.49 viral attack rate by 7.75x — almost 8 fold! A virus that spreads 8 faster than SARS cannot be stopped by containment alone. A 99% quarantine lockdown containment of Wuhan will not even reduce the epidemic's spread by even 1/3rd in the next 2 weeks. Thus, I really hate to be the epidemiologist who has to admit this, but we are potentially faced with possibly an unchecked pandemic that the world has not seen since the 1918 Spanish Influenza. Let's hope it doesn't reach that level but we now live in the modern world 🌎 with faster ✈️+ 🚞 than 1918. WHO and CDC needs to declare public health emergency ASAP!

What is the typical R0 attack rate for the seasonal flu in most years? It's around an R0=1.28. The 2009 flu pandemic? R0=1.48. The 1918 Spanish Flu? 1.80. This new #WuhanCoronavirus reproductive value again? R0=3.8.

And it gets even worse, the Lancet now reports that the coronavirus is contagious even when *no symptoms*: specifically: "crucial to isolate patients... quarantine contacts as early as possible because asymptomatic infection appears possible"!

Let's pretend the 3.8 estimate is too high (there's unpublished estimates of 2.5). even if this virus's R0=2.5, that's still 2x higher than seasonal flu's 1.28 (ref above), and higher than 1918 Spanish Flu pandemic of 1.80 that killed millions. So 2.8 is still super bad folks.

eek

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Now I do like a good conspiracy theory but ground zero for this place is Wuhan which just so happens to have a Bio-warfare Lab.
The Chi-comms don't give a rats a..ss about their own folks and would happily see a pandemic strike down the economies of the USA and it's partners. This just seems too convenient at a time when Trump is crippling China's economy with tariffs.

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Israeli Biological Warfare Expert Connects China’s Wuhan Virus to Covert Biological Warfare Laboratory

An Israeli biological warfare expert is linking China’s deadly Wuhan virus to China’s ‘covert biological warfare’ laboratory(s); It’s believed that the Wuhan Institute of Virology is where the disease may have originated.

An Israeli biological warfare expert by the name of Dany Shoham, who is now with the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies at Bar Ilan University in Israel, believes that the deadly Wuhan virus is likely connected to one of China’s covert biological warfare laboratories; in this case, the Wuhan Institute of Virology. While there is a lot of speculation at this point, there are several truths that validate his concern. Shoham stated, “Certain laboratories in the institute have probably been engaged, in terms of research and development, in Chinese biological weapons, at least collaterally, yet not as a principal facility of the Chinese BW alignment.”

Dany Shoham was a lieutenant colonel and a senior analyst with the Israeli Military Intelligence for biological and chemical warfare, and he unquestionably states that biological tests that are run in these laboratories are ‘covert’. In addition to his suspicions, the US State Department believes that China has been partaking in covert biological warfare operations as well. Though China is denying any rumors of involvement.

The State Department issued a report in 2019 stating that “Information indicates that the People’s Republic of China engaged during the reporting period in biological activities with potential dual-use applications, which raises concerns regarding its compliance with the BWC,” the report said, adding that the United States suspects China failed to eliminate its biological warfare program as required by the treaty. The United States has compliance concerns with respect to Chinese military medical institutions’ toxin research and development because of the potential dual-use applications and their potential as a biological threat.”

Thus far, the virus has killed at least 41 people with that number likely to rise and has spread to nine other countries, including the United States. The first report in the US came from Washington State.
January 25th, 2020|News

https://beholdisrael.org/israeli-biologi...are-laboratory/

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Originally Posted By Pickles
Israeli Biological Warfare Expert Connects China’s Wuhan Virus to Covert Biological Warfare Laboratory

An Israeli biological warfare expert is linking China’s deadly Wuhan virus to China’s ‘covert biological warfare’ laboratory(s); It’s believed that the Wuhan Institute of Virology is where the disease may have originated.

An Israeli biological warfare expert by the name of Dany Shoham, who is now with the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies at Bar Ilan University in Israel, believes that the deadly Wuhan virus is likely connected to one of China’s covert biological warfare laboratories; in this case, the Wuhan Institute of Virology. While there is a lot of speculation at this point, there are several truths that validate his concern. Shoham stated, “Certain laboratories in the institute have probably been engaged, in terms of research and development, in Chinese biological weapons, at least collaterally, yet not as a principal facility of the Chinese BW alignment.”

Dany Shoham was a lieutenant colonel and a senior analyst with the Israeli Military Intelligence for biological and chemical warfare, and he unquestionably states that biological tests that are run in these laboratories are ‘covert’. In addition to his suspicions, the US State Department believes that China has been partaking in covert biological warfare operations as well. Though China is denying any rumors of involvement.

The State Department issued a report in 2019 stating that “Information indicates that the People’s Republic of China engaged during the reporting period in biological activities with potential dual-use applications, which raises concerns regarding its compliance with the BWC,” the report said, adding that the United States suspects China failed to eliminate its biological warfare program as required by the treaty. The United States has compliance concerns with respect to Chinese military medical institutions’ toxin research and development because of the potential dual-use applications and their potential as a biological threat.”

Thus far, the virus has killed at least 41 people with that number likely to rise and has spread to nine other countries, including the United States. The first report in the US came from Washington State.
January 25th, 2020|News

https://beholdisrael.org/israeli-biologi...are-laboratory/


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“90,000 Infected”: Chinese Nurse Claims Coronavirus Outbreak In Wuhan Is MUCH WORSE Than Reported (VIDEO)




In a leaked video, a nurse in Wuhan, China claimed that 90,000 people in China have been infected so far and stated that many people are currently in China visiting family due to Chinese New Year.

The Chinese nurse warned that the virus is showing signs of mutation and that millions of people could be at risk of getting infected.

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It's not looking good, the spread is quicker and more widespread that anyone expected, or the authorities are admitting. This could be a real belter, I fear.

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Originally Posted By Hercules/AF 58
It's not looking good, the spread is quicker and more widespread that anyone expected, or the authorities are admitting. This could be a real belter, I fear.


What's the risk of the EPL being shut down because of the spread and would any team be proclaimed champions

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Epidemic Tracker In China May Have Accidentally Leaked Real Data On Wuhan Virus Deaths — And They’re Bad

by Eric A. Blair February 5, 2020


Tencent, a multinational conglomerate holding company in China, may have accidentally leaked the real data on the Wuhan virus.

The real spread and death toll of the coronavirus is unknown, as China controls all information on the deadly pneumonia-like virus. But some interesting numbers recently appeared that might give a real clue to its spread.

“On late Saturday evening (Feb. 1), Tencent, on its webpage titled ‘Epidemic Situation Tracker,’ showed confirmed cases of novel coronavirus (2019nCoV) in China as standing at 154,023, 10 times the official figure at the time. It listed the number of suspected cases as 79,808, four times the official figure,” Taiwan News reported.

The number of cured cases was only 269, well below the official number that day of 300. Most ominously, the death toll listed was 24,589, vastly higher than the 300 officially listed that day.

But that report didn’t last long.

“Moments later, Tencent updated the numbers to reflect the government’s ‘official’ numbers that day. Netizens noticed that Tencent has on at least three occasions posted extremely high numbers, only to quickly lower them to government-approved statistics,” the news site reported.

Theories quickly emerged about the differing numbers. Some speculated that Tencent has two sets of data, the “real data” and “processed” data., and that some sort of coding problem caused the “real” data to accidentally appear on its webpage.

Others speculate that the numbers are even worse than Tencent said, noting that as the virus sweeps across rural parts of China, many coronavirus patients die outside of hospitals and are thus not counted.

A U.S. site connected to Johns Hopkins put the numbers far lower, with 24,631 infected, 494 dead and 1,029 “recovered.”

Take a look at the worldwide map here>>>

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

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Originally Posted By Pickles
Epidemic Tracker In China May Have Accidentally Leaked Real Data On Wuhan Virus Deaths — And They’re Bad

by Eric A. Blair February 5, 2020


Tencent, a multinational conglomerate holding company in China, may have accidentally leaked the real data on the Wuhan virus.

The real spread and death toll of the coronavirus is unknown, as China controls all information on the deadly pneumonia-like virus. But some interesting numbers recently appeared that might give a real clue to its spread.

“On late Saturday evening (Feb. 1), Tencent, on its webpage titled ‘Epidemic Situation Tracker,’ showed confirmed cases of novel coronavirus (2019nCoV) in China as standing at 154,023, 10 times the official figure at the time. It listed the number of suspected cases as 79,808, four times the official figure,” Taiwan News reported.

The number of cured cases was only 269, well below the official number that day of 300. Most ominously, the death toll listed was 24,589, vastly higher than the 300 officially listed that day.

But that report didn’t last long.

“Moments later, Tencent updated the numbers to reflect the government’s ‘official’ numbers that day. Netizens noticed that Tencent has on at least three occasions posted extremely high numbers, only to quickly lower them to government-approved statistics,” the news site reported.

Theories quickly emerged about the differing numbers. Some speculated that Tencent has two sets of data, the “real data” and “processed” data., and that some sort of coding problem caused the “real” data to accidentally appear on its webpage.

Others speculate that the numbers are even worse than Tencent said, noting that as the virus sweeps across rural parts of China, many coronavirus patients die outside of hospitals and are thus not counted.

A U.S. site connected to Johns Hopkins put the numbers far lower, with 24,631 infected, 494 dead and 1,029 “recovered.”

Take a look at the worldwide map here>>>

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6



What's the point of posting all these unchecked rumours, what would you do more than you are doing currently? What's your point, the US should bomb China because they are lying and to finish the virus there?

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Tell you what Vish, don't read them and you won't get your knickers in a twist then!

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Keep these very informative posts going pickles don't listen to Vish. I regard them as my prime source of information and rely on them as many do on this forum


IF YOU WANT TO BE HEARD SPEAK SOFTLY - BOB PAISLEY
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Originally Posted By Pickles
Tell you what Vish, don't read them and you won't get your knickers in a twist then!



Do you really think I read all that crap, just couldn't understand why you post all those unchecked rumours, you want to panic everybody, what's the point?

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Originally Posted By Stanley Park
Keep these very informative posts going pickles don't listen to Vish. I regard them as my prime source of information and rely on them as many do on this forum


The idea that this has been manufactured somehow is plausible but there are some really nasty conditions that people live in where you would have thought something even nastier would be found.

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LIVE FROM HONG KONG: Coronovirus is Killing People and Commerce in China – Concerns Escalate Due to China’s Actions – Hubei and Wuhan Leaders Replaced



The coronavirus is killing off people and commerce in China. Mixed messaging from China’s leaders leads to more questions and less faith in what you can trust coming from the government.

Today in Hong Kong the schools announced that they will remain closed from the end of March through mid-March as a result of the coronavirus. Civil servants in Hong Kong were asked to stay home another week as well. Most companies in Hong Kong are following the governement’s recommendation to civil servants.

The airlines in Hong Kong are another indication of the impact the virus is having on Hong Kong, let alone China. The Hong Kong Immigration Department releases daily passenger arrivals and departures at the Hong Kong airport, one of the top ranked airports in the world:

The number of arrivals and departures has decreased between January 24th and February 12th astronomically, from 127,000 and 257,000 to 3,000 and 4,000, respectively. The world class Hong Kong airport, for all intensive purposes, is shut down. Since Saturday, any mainland arrivals must remain quarantined for 14 days per new actions taken in Hong Kong.

John Hopkins in the US maintains a site that counts cases by location and the numbers are increasing with over 60,000 now infected with the virus (see picture above). In addition the site shows that nearly 1,400 people have died and around 6,000 are recovered. This apparently doesn’t mean that nearly one in five infected with the virus dies because reports are that the virus is less fatal than SARS.

What is frustrating is that the Chinese government will not allow the CDC into China to identify the cause of the coronavirus or where it first started. Breitbart reported in late January:

U.S. health officials said that they have been offering for weeks to send experts to help China combat the coronavirus that has claimed at least 106 lives.

At press conference Tuesday, U.S. Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar said the U.S. first offered to send experts from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention on January 6 but China has not yet accepted the offer.

“CDC experts are standing by, ready willing and able to go immediately to China, either on a bilateral basis or under the auspices of the World Health Organization,” Azar said. “This is a major public health issue and we basically just need the best public health people we have in the world working on this.”

U.S. personnel could aid China in answering critical public health questions about how the virus spreads, its incubation period, and if it can be spread by those not yet showing symptoms, CDC Director Robert Redfield said.

Because China won’t let the CDC in to determine the cause of the virus and other information to aid recovery, many suspect wrongdoing. One tweet identified the burning of organic matters outside Wuhan. It’s not sure what this organic matter is:

Data from https://t.co/oDMad8pquE shows a massive release of sulfur dioxide gas from the outskirts of Wuhan, commonly associated with the burning of organic matters. Levels are elevated, even compared with the rest of China. pic.twitter.com/XgBfJd7dDS

(@inteldotwav) February 8, 2020


Senator Tom Cotton is also concerned with reports coming out of China, noting that a super lab developed for biological warfare was very near the market where the virus is suspected of originating:

Fact: super-lab is just a few miles from that market

Where did it start? We don’t know. But burden of proof is on you & fellow communists. Open up now to competent international scientists.

— Tom Cotton (@SenTomCotton) February 9, 2020


China too is apparently upset with the way the coronavirus has been managed announcing changes today:

China’s Communist Party has replaced the party heads in the coronavirus stricken province of Hubei and its capital Wuhan, state media said on Thursday, reporting the most high profile officials to be dismissed in the wake of the epidemic.

The removal of Jiang Chaoliang, the leading Communist Party official of Hubei province, and Ma Guoqiang, his counterpart in Wuhan, follows the dismissal of two provincial health officials on Tuesday, and is part of a wider effort by Beijing to remove bureaucrats it accuses of shirking their duties.

The central government has set up a special cabinet task force under Premier Li Keqiang to handle the crisis, and the new appointments in Hubei suggest that China’s senior leaders are taking greater control.

Shanghai mayor Ying Yong has been appointed as the new secretary of the Hubei Provincial Committee of the Communist Party of China, replacing Jiang, the official Xinhua news agency said without explaining why Jiang was removed.

Now rumors coming out of China are that the Ying Yong knew he was being assigned to Hubei province because he sent doctors from Shanghai to Hubei recently, knowing they are needed.
Due to the lack of transparency and delay in reporting, the whole world is anxious wondering what is really going on in Wuhan. The coronavirus in China, Hong Kong and now the world is causing deaths and massive anxiety.

Hat tip Doug Ross

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/02...aders-replaced/

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They Documented the Coronavirus Crisis in Wuhan. Then They Vanished



February 14, 2020 in Business, News

HONG KONG — The beige van squatted outside of a Wuhan hospital, its side and back doors ajar. Fang Bin, a local clothing salesman, peered inside as he walked past. He groaned: “So many dead.” He counted five, six, seven, eight body bags. “This is too many.”

That moment, in a 40-minute video about the coronavirus outbreak that has devastated China, propelled Mr. Fang to internet fame. Then, less than two weeks later, he disappeared.


Days earlier, another prominent video blogger in Wuhan, Chen Qiushi, had also gone missing. Mr. Chen’s friends and family said they believed he had been forcibly quarantined.

Before their disappearances, Mr. Fang and Mr. Chen had recorded dozens of videos from Wuhan, streaming unfiltered and often heartbreaking images from the heart of the outbreak. Long lines outside hospitals. Feeble patients. Agonized relatives.

The footage would have been striking anywhere. But it was especially so coming from inside China, where even mild criticism of the authorities is quickly scrubbed from the online record, and those responsible for it often punished.

The appetite for the videos reflects, in part, the shortage of independent news sources in China, where professional newspapers are tightly controlled by the authorities. Earlier this month, the state propaganda department deployed hundreds of journalists to reshape the narrative of the outbreak.

But the videos also reflected the growing call for free speech in China in recent weeks, as the coronavirus crisis has prompted criticism and introspection from unexpected corners across the country.

Several professional news organizations have produced incisive reports on the outbreak. A revolt against government censorship broke out on Chinese social media last week after the death of Li Wenliang, the Wuhan doctor who had tried to warn of the virus before officials had acknowledged an outbreak.

Mr. Fang’s and Mr. Chen’s videos were another manifestation of the dissatisfaction that the government’s handling of the outbreak has unleashed among ordinary Chinese citizens.

“When suddenly there’s a crisis, they want to have access to a wider array of content and reporting,” said Sarah Cook, who studies Chinese media at Freedom House, a pro-democracy research group based in the United States.

The disappearance of the two men also underscores that the ruling Communist Party has no intention of loosening its grip on free speech.

China’s leader, Xi Jinping, said last month that officials needed to “strengthen the guidance of public opinion.” While Chinese social media has overflowed with fear and grief, state propaganda outlets have emphasized Mr. Xi’s steady hand, framed the fight against the outbreak as a form of patriotism and shared upbeat videos of medical workers dancing.

More than 350 people across China have been punished for “spreading rumors” about the outbreak, according to Chinese Human Rights Defenders, an advocacy group.

Mr. Chen, a fast-talking, fresh-faced lawyer from eastern China, was already well-known online before the outbreak. He traveled to Hong Kong during the pro-democracy protests last year and disputed the Chinese authorities’ depiction of the demonstrators as a riotous mob.

The Beijing authorities summoned him back to the mainland and deleted his social media accounts, Mr. Chen told his followers later.

But when the coronavirus led officials to seal off Wuhan last month, he raced to the city of 11 million, citing his duty as a self-declared citizen journalist. “What sort of a journalist are you if you don’t dare rush to the front line?” he said.

In his videos, which drew millions of views on YouTube, Mr. Chen interviewed locals who had lost loved ones, filmed a woman breaking down as she waited for care and visited an exhibition center that had been converted into a quarantine center.

He was blocked from WeChat, a major Chinese social media app, for spreading rumors. But he was adamant that he shared only what he himself had seen or heard.

As time went on, Mr. Chen, usually energetic, began to show strain. “I am scared,” he said on Jan. 30. “In front of me is the virus. Behind me is China’s legal and administrative power.”

The authorities had contacted his parents to ask for his whereabouts, he said. He teared up suddenly. Then, his finger pointing at the camera, he blurted: “I’m not even scared of death. You think I’m scared of you, Communist Party?”

On Feb. 6, Mr. Chen’s friends lost contact with him. Xu Xiaodong, a prominent mixed martial arts practitioner and a friend of Mr. Chen, posted a video on Feb. 7 saying that Mr. Chen’s parents had been told that their son had been quarantined, though he had not shown symptoms of illness.

Unlike Mr. Chen, Mr. Fang, the clothing salesman, was fairly anonymous before the coronavirus outbreak. Much of his YouTube activity had involved producing enthusiastic videos about traditional Chinese clothing.

But as the outbreak escalated, he began sharing videos of Wuhan’s empty streets and crowded hospitals. They lacked the slickness of Mr. Chen’s dispatches, which were often subtitled and tightly edited. But, as with Mr. Chen’s videos, they showed a man growing increasingly desperate — and defiant.

On Feb. 2, Mr. Fang described how officials had confiscated his laptop and interrogated him about his footage of the body bags. On Feb. 4, he filmed a group of people outside his home, who said they were there to ask him questions. He turned them away, daring them to break down his door.

In his final videos, Mr. Fang turned explicitly political in a way rarely heard inside China, at least in public. Filming from inside his home — he said he was surrounded by plainclothes policemen — he railed against “greed for power” and “tyranny.”

His last video, on Feb. 9, was just 12 seconds long. It featured a scroll of paper with the words, “All citizens resist, hand power back to the people.”

Despite the worldwide audience for Mr. Fang’s and Mr. Chen’s videos, it is hard to know how much reach they had domestically, said Fang Kecheng, an assistant professor of journalism at the Chinese University of Hong Kong. Both men relied heavily on YouTube and Twitter, which are blocked in China.

But unlike the torrent of grief and anger online in response to the death of Dr. Li, news of Mr. Chen’s and Mr. Fang’s disappearances has been swiftly stamped out on Chinese social media. Their names returned almost no results on Weibo, China’s Twitter-like platform, on Friday.

Still, Ms. Cook said the power of Mr. Chen’s and Mr. Fang’s videos, as well as the reporting done by professional journalists in Wuhan, should not be underestimated.

She pointed to the Chinese authorities’ decision this week to loosen diagnostic requirements for coronavirus cases, leading to a significant jump in reported infections, as evidence of their impact.

That decision might not have come “if you didn’t have all these people in Wuhan sending out reports that what you’re hearing is an underestimate,” Ms. Cook said. “These very courageous individuals can, in unusual circumstances, push back and force the state’s hand.”

Mr. Fang, in one of his last videos, seemed struck by a similar sentiment. He thanked his viewers, who he said had been calling him nonstop to send support.

“A person, just an ordinary person, a silly person,” he said of himself, “who lifted the lid for a second.”

Elaine Yu contributed reporting.

The post They Documented the Coronavirus Crisis in Wuhan. Then They Vanished. appeared first on New York Times.

https://dnyuz.com/2020/02/14/they-documented-the-coronavirus-crisis-in-wuhan-then-they-vanished/

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UK Government Document Warns Coronavirus Could Infect 80 Per Cent, Kill Half a Million Brits



Worst case scenario leaked.

A leaked UK government document warns that under a worst case scenario, 80 per cent of Brits could be infected with the coronavirus and half a million would die.

The document, which was leaked to the S*n newspaper, outlines “the reasonable worst case” outcome in which four fifths of the country to succumb to the virus.

“The current planning assumption is that 2-3 per cent of symptomatic cases will result in a ­fatality,” states the document, meaning that 500,000 would die.

A spokesman for the Department of Health and Social Care emphasized that such numbers were a worst case scenario and “this does not mean we expect it to happen.”

Earlier today, more than 300 staff members of American oil company Chevron were evacuated from a building in London’s Canary Wharf after an employee returning from an infected country reported flu symptoms.

There are currently only 13 confirmed cases of coronavirus in England, although the World Health Organization just warned countries outside of China that they were “simply not ready” for the spread of the virus.

“It can get ready very fast, but the big shift has to be in the mindset,” said Dr Bruce Aylward, the WHO’s China envoy.

For the first time, more new cases have been reported in countries outside of China than inside, with 411 inside China and 427 outside.

The WHO’s Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus said the sudden rise in coronavirus cases in Italy, Iran and South Korea was “deeply concerning.”

https://summit.news/2020/02/26/uk-govern...-million-brits/

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I still believe information on total deaths is being suppressed by all countries.

I for one heard a ambulance drive in Wales state that an ambulance had to be taken out of service to be deep cleaned following accidentally transporting a patient with covid-19 to hospital.


this just beggers belief, personally I believe it to be a biological weapon which China was working on.

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Well there’s a case in Northamptonshire now so that’s me a gonna. It’s been nice knowing you all.

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Looks like the country to be the most hit will the the US with the worst health system of the developed world and his know it all President

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Got to feel for those out there who can’t afford health care. It’s kind of third world to not be able to get basic health care.

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Originally Posted By wilkij1975
Got to feel for those out there who can’t afford health care. It’s kind of third world to not be able to get basic health care.


Yep, difficult to believe, maybe the Americans will understand the value of thinking a bit of others. Those who cannot get cured because they don't have the means will only spread the virus to the rest.

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Some nasty anti American rhetoric being spouted on here and huge generalisations being made about the American people


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Sorry Stan you angel you. N bee heard any anti (insert country here) rhetoric from you have we?

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Originally Posted By wilkij1975
Sorry Stan you angel you. N bee heard any anti (insert country here) rhetoric from you have we?


Give examples? these not to include dictators or terrorists residing in countries. Our friend has told us Americans (presumably all 320 million of them) are selfish. Really ? He also said America has the worst health service in the developed world that's rubbish. It may have the most unequal but if you have insurance the care you get is probably better than UK. Ever wonder why we raise funds in the UK for terminally ill patients to get treatment in the USA? Why is that ?

Last edited by Stanley Park; 28/03/20 08:52 PM.

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Like I said. You’re an angel. You only have good to say about all other countries (ask shaggy for Ireland) like all brexiteers.

I feel for those in the ‘unequal’ system over there who can’t afford the care. Are all Americans selfish? No, probably not. But do they do all they can to make things fair and equal? I very much doubt it.

The nhs is a fantastic thing and should be something the world aspired to, including America. Trouble is the dollar counts for more than a human life to those who make the decisions out there.

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It's complete and utter hogwash about folks not being able to get healthcare here in the USA. The folks who can't pay for treatments have other avenues to get treatment with non profit healthcare facilities that are subsidised by state governments and bill Medicaid and offer medical services at low or no cost.
Churches also financially help out the needy and vulnerable.


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Originally Posted By Stanley Park
Originally Posted By wilkij1975
Sorry Stan you angel you. N bee heard any anti (insert country here) rhetoric from you have we?


Give examples? these not to include dictators or terrorists residing in countries. Our friend has told us Americans (presumably all 320 million of them) are selfish. Really ? He also said America has the worst health service in the developed world that's rubbish. It may have the most unequal but if you have insurance the care you get is probably better than UK. Ever wonder why we raise funds in the UK for terminally ill patients to get treatment in the USA? Why is that ?


I was talking about the system not 320m people. That said, it is a majority who elects the government that put the system in place.

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Originally Posted By Pickles
It's complete and utter hogwash about folks not being able to get healthcare here in the USA. The folks who can't pay for treatments have other avenues to get treatment with non profit healthcare facilities that are subsidised by state governments and bill Medicaid and offer medical services at low or no cost.
Churches also financially help out the needy and vulnerable.



It should be the work of the government, not churches and NGOs. In my country which doesn't have 0.0001% of US resources which is not even considered developed, people have access to free health and education because it's considered a right and rightly so. If you think your health system is good, fine, I dont live there and I am hearing quite the opposite on the news.

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The news you hear is Orange Man Bad and that's it. There is no serious, professional media or journalism anymore, they are a joke!

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Originally Posted By Pickles
The news you hear is Orange Man Bad and that's it. There is no serious, professional media or journalism anymore, they are a joke!


There must be a reason for that, I believe in no smoke without fire

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Originally Posted By wilkij1975
Like I said. You’re an angel. You only have good to say about all other countries (ask shaggy for Ireland) like all brexiteers.

I feel for those in the ‘unequal’ system over there who can’t afford the care. Are all Americans selfish? No, probably not. But do they do all they can to make things fair and equal? I very much doubt it.

The nhs is a fantastic thing and should be something the world aspired to, including America. Trouble is the dollar counts for more than a human life to those who make the decisions out there.


I have criticised the IRA and their supporters many times but not Ireland itself I have also critised the Irish government over brexit but not Ireland. I am sick of this anti American BS i have worked in America and been there on holiday many times that and Canada are my favourite holiday destinations. Are the Americans and America perfect ? No ! But to be fair Britain is far from perfect. If EMP was around I have no doubt he would blame America for this crisis as he blames America for everything. I have never been critical of a country however I am going to make a start now. I think China is a hell hole its treatment of animals and people is a horror show and once this is over the west needs to rethink its relationship with china particularly trade and the animal horror markets should be under UN management to stop them for the sake of world health and humanity


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I’m not anti America although being so close to them while Trump is in charge is dangerous in my mind.

I’m anti their lack of health care for anyone but the better off. For a world leader poverty over there is horrendous and like a third world country.

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Originally Posted By wilkij1975
I’m not anti America although being so close to them while Trump is in charge is dangerous in my mind.

I’m anti their lack of health care for anyone but the better off. For a world leader poverty over there is horrendous and like a third world country.


No health service is free the NHS is not free we pay taxes for it. I prefer our health service to the USA but the NHS is not perfect either no other country in the world has copied it and if you google the best health services in the world you will find the NHS is nowhere near the top. That said I am proud of our NHS but take the rose tinted glasses off for a second yes the USA has great wealth inequalities but so does Britain and while we are at it name me a country that doesn't ?


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Originally Posted By Stanley Park
Originally Posted By wilkij1975
I’m not anti America although being so close to them while Trump is in charge is dangerous in my mind.

I’m anti their lack of health care for anyone but the better off. For a world leader poverty over there is horrendous and like a third world country.


No health service is free the NHS is not free we pay taxes for it. I prefer our health service to the USA but the NHS is not perfect either no other country in the world has copied it and if you google the best health services in the world you will find the NHS is nowhere near the top. That said I am proud of our NHS but take the rose tinted glasses off for a second yes the USA has great wealth inequalities but so does Britain and while we are at it name me a country that doesn't ?


Nobody is talking about wealth inequalities but free basic needs such as health, lots of countries have that and the US could easily afford that by taking a small proportion off their defence budget far example. Priorities should be in the right place and this virus will open a lot of eyes in the US, at least I hope for the more vulnerable. And yes it is financed through taxes, it means free for those who are not rich

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If you have such strong views on how the United States manages its affairs then stand for election there. I prefer the British system but clearly the American people prefer their system otherwise they would vote accordingly. The obamacare system was very contravershal in the US generally the culture in the US is low taxes and look after yourself not my idea but it works for them. They are doing something right they are the richest country in the world


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Originally Posted By Stanley Park
If you have such strong views on how the United States manages its affairs then stand for election there. I prefer the British system but clearly the American people prefer their system otherwise they would vote accordingly. The obamacare system was very contravershal in the US generally the culture in the US is low taxes and look after yourself not my idea but it works for them. They are doing something right they are the richest country in the world


Yes richest country of the world, don't think their poor people who cannot afford to get cured are too bothered about that, let's see how the richest country cope with the pandemic then.

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I would imagine the richest country in the world suffers very badly from the virus as will Britain as will most countries. Your gloating over it is pityful


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Originally Posted By Stanley Park
I would imagine the richest country in the world suffers very badly from the virus as will Britain as will most countries. Your gloating over it is pityful


I am not gloating as I am not the one who mentioned "richest country in the world" but rather sad for the poor people of the richest country in the world not having access to free health system as you have in UK, would you rather be in a system like in the US?

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Originally Posted By EnergisedReds
Originally Posted By Stanley Park
I would imagine the richest country in the world suffers very badly from the virus as will Britain as will most countries. Your gloating over it is pityful


I am not gloating as I am not the one who mentioned "richest country in the world" but rather sad for the poor people of the richest country in the world not having access to free health system as you have in UK, would you rather be in a system like in the US?


You described the American nation and hence its people as selfish you are now thankfully backtracking. I have already said I prefer the British system. But in America what matters is what the American people want. America is a democracy if they wanted the British system they would have voted for it long ago. Incidently no other country in the world adopts the British system even in the EU (which is of course perfect) they have insurance based systems or variants of.


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And our health service is not free it's paid for by the taxpayer something I am happy to do but don't call it free


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Originally Posted By Stanley Park
And our health service is not free it's paid for by the taxpayer something I am happy to do but don't call it free


Yes, a government's revenue is through taxes and it's a way for those who have to pay those who dont have, so it's free for those who dont have the means. This is what defines the generosity of a society

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You do realise that the NHS is largely funded by general taxation, with a small amount being contributed by National Insurance Stamp payments, Vish?

Everybody pays Value Added Tax in the UK for goods and services that includes those who are unemployed. So it's NOT FREE!

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Originally Posted By Pickles
You do realise that the NHS is largely funded by general taxation, with a small amount being contributed by National Insurance Stamp payments, Vish?

Everybody pays Value Added Tax in the UK for goods and services that includes those who are unemployed. So it's NOT FREE!



If course its not free but wealthy people pay taxes more and therefore pay for the health care of the needy. Dont you think it's a good thing? As a society I think on health issues people shouldn't be selfish, pay low taxes while others cannot afford proper treatment. I told you a few weeks back that having to pay for tests is going to backfire big time in US, this is what's happening unfortunately

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The tests are free!

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Originally Posted By Pickles
The tests are free!


Great (is it true it became free on the 18th March), and I hope the treatment as well which would be new to the US, ie, people not having to pay for healthcare. Question is, why only in the current situation, this should have been a norm in any nation having the resources of the US a bit what Obama wanted to do no? Dont know what you think of the article below

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/30/opinion/coronavirus-test-cost-bill.html

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Originally Posted By EnergisedReds
Originally Posted By Stanley Park
And our health service is not free it's paid for by the taxpayer something I am happy to do but don't call it free


Yes, a government's revenue is through taxes and it's a way for those who have to pay those who dont have, so it's free for those who dont have the means. This is what defines the generosity of a society


I don't disagree however the American people prefer their system and I know you like to tell other countries how to run their business but it's a democratic decision for the American people. Had they wanted a British system they would have voted for it 70 years ago


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Originally Posted By Stanley Park
Originally Posted By EnergisedReds
Originally Posted By Stanley Park
And our health service is not free it's paid for by the taxpayer something I am happy to do but don't call it free


Yes, a government's revenue is through taxes and it's a way for those who have to pay those who dont have, so it's free for those who dont have the means. This is what defines the generosity of a society


I don't disagree however the American people prefer their system and I know you like to tell other countries how to run their business but it's a democratic decision for the American people. Had they wanted a British system they would have voted for it 70 years ago


Sure, but I can also have a view and comment what I think, is that ok with you? It looks like they have quickly changed their opinion with the Covid 19 with tests now and I think treatment free of charge, that's great IMO for the needy.

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My point was there must be some advantage to the America system otherwise they would not have it. I worked in America and discussed with a local they have much greater choice over treatment options than here in U.K. in the U.K. you see your doctor and the process starts from there you have little choice who and how you are treated. The American system is much more self service and choice. I prefer the British system for many of the reasons you give but it's not a case of British all good America all bad there are pros and cons to both. Remember most of Europe is closer to American system than British


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Originally Posted By Stanley Park
My point was there must be some advantage to the America system otherwise they would not have it. I worked in America and discussed with a local they have much greater choice over treatment options than here in U.K. in the U.K. you see your doctor and the process starts from there you have little choice who and how you are treated. The American system is much more self service and choice. I prefer the British system for many of the reasons you give but it's not a case of British all good America all bad there are pros and cons to both. Remember most of Europe is closer to American system than British


I know it's paid by the social security (govt) in France as well, dont know about others. Dont you have a private system if you want in UK as well if you want a bigger choice as you say?

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Interesting...


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So wearing masks must surely help...not just for those who may have it, but for those who don't.

WHO made a rick telling folks masks won't help!!!

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Originally Posted By Pickles
So wearing masks must surely help...not just for those who may have it, but for those who don't.

WHO made a rick telling folks masks won't help!!!


Effectiveness of wearing masks is gaining traction, some countries like HK seems to be managing quite well and they are using masks all the time, they are not even in lockdown, only schools closed

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Yes we do have a big private health service in Britain Vish mainly rich people and corporate. Most big companies put their management staff in private health schemes however you are taxed on it as a benefit in kind. The same consultant doctors as work in the NHS also work in the private sector and earn huge amounts of money. For some operations like say a new hip you can wait years on the NHS whereas if you have private insurance you can be treated immediately


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Originally Posted By Stanley Park
Yes we do have a big private health service in Britain Vish mainly rich people and corporate. Most big companies put their management staff in private health schemes however you are taxed on it as a benefit in kind. The same consultant doctors as work in the NHS also work in the private sector and earn huge amounts of money. For some operations like say a new hip you can wait years on the NHS whereas if you have private insurance you can be treated immediately


It's the same here, except that up to a limit the contribution to health insurance is deductible in our tax calculation. But, those not having the means go to the public hospitals which is much much better than not going because you cannot afford. As I said, even Trump had to change his strong views with free tests and treatment, hopefully the americans would see the need as a society of having free health treatment now even if it is the wealthier who pay through taxes.

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