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#627180 - 07/09/19 12:17 PM British democracy dead and buried
Stanley Park Online   crying
Liverpool Legend

Registered: 21/10/09
Posts: 26488
Loc: Not the EU
Leave to one side MP,s not respecting the publics vote in 2016 it's very clear they have been trying to overturn it since the day after the vote. They have been using increasingly desperate measures. But we all can see that.

However some of the mundane procedural processes they have been using have gone under the radar with the public but are probably more serious than refusing to allow the brexit vote

Take the speaker the speaker is supposed to be an impartial refereee and plays a critical role in our democracy. However the speaker has worked with Remain MP,s and has changed the rules around the order papers, rules that have been in place since 1830. It might sound dull but what this means is the government no longer controls the business of the house in effect the government is no longer has power

This goes way beyond brexit this fundamentally changes our democracy for generations ahead

Then we have remain MP,s refusing to allow elections because they perceive the public will vote for something they don't want. This would not be out of place in a third world dictatorship

Let's suppose now they succeed in not letting Britain leave the EU that would not be the choice of the British people the country will become ungovernable and I feel dramatic social and economic disasters are ahead far far worse than the worst brexit scenario
_________________________
IF YOU WANT TO BE HEARD SPEAK SOFTLY - BOB PAISLEY

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#627181 - 07/09/19 12:40 PM Re: British democracy dead and buried [Re: Stanley Park]
EnergisedReds Online   content
Liverpool Legend

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 20880
Originally Posted By Stanley Park
Leave to one side MP,s not respecting the publics vote in 2016 it's very clear they have been trying to overturn it since the day after the vote. They have been using increasingly desperate measures. But we all can see that.

However some of the mundane procedural processes they have been using have gone under the radar with the public but are probably more serious than refusing to allow the brexit vote

Take the speaker the speaker is supposed to be an impartial refereee and plays a critical role in our democracy. However the speaker has worked with Remain MP,s and has changed the rules around the order papers, rules that have been in place since 1830. It might sound dull but what this means is the government no longer controls the business of the house in effect the government is no longer has power

This goes way beyond brexit this fundamentally changes our democracy for generations ahead

Then we have remain MP,s refusing to allow elections because they perceive the public will vote for something they don't want. This would not be out of place in a third world dictatorship

Let's suppose now they succeed in not letting Britain leave the EU that would not be the choice of the British people the country will become ungovernable and I feel dramatic social and economic disasters are ahead far far worse than the worst brexit scenario



I think you are exaggerating out of your wish to leave after your ecstasy of 'winning' unexpectedly. Your democracy is a parliament democracy so whatever is happening is because you have a minority government. The bigger problem is that your whole society is divided, not only your parliament but even families. If you think just leaving will solve everything, I would say you are fooling yourself.

Though I think a new referendum on clear options would be the most sensible way forward, I understand it might divide your society deeper, with leavers feeling they were cheated.

As I said before, maybe a no deal might solve the divide as people see for real the consequences. If people are unhappy, they can have another referendum in 4-5 years.


Edited by EnergisedReds (07/09/19 12:42 PM)

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#627182 - 07/09/19 12:52 PM Re: British democracy dead and buried [Re: EnergisedReds]
Stanley Park Online   crying
Liverpool Legend

Registered: 21/10/09
Posts: 26488
Loc: Not the EU
We are a parliamentary democracy and MP,s use their judgement. However that does not apply in a referendum where parliamentary democracy authorises the delegation of the decision to the people.

I agree we should leave with no deal and if it's as bad as remainers claim then we can rejoin

Anything else other than leaving the EU wont be accepted by leavers and the many remainers who don't agree with leaving the EU but respect democracy that's a lot of hacked off people
_________________________
IF YOU WANT TO BE HEARD SPEAK SOFTLY - BOB PAISLEY

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#627183 - 07/09/19 01:00 PM Re: British democracy dead and buried [Re: Stanley Park]
EnergisedReds Online   content
Liverpool Legend

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 20880
Originally Posted By Stanley Park
We are a parliamentary democracy and MP,s use their judgement. However that does not apply in a referendum where parliamentary democracy authorises the delegation of the decision to the people.

I agree we should leave with no deal and if it's as bad as remainers claim then we can rejoin

Anything else other than leaving the EU wont be accepted by leavers and the many remainers who don't agree with leaving the EU but respect democracy that's a lot of hacked off people


That's not exact if you go by your democracy, I am sure you know that the referendum in real terms was only advisory and not binding, but then I fully understand that leavers are not interested with that fact. I know, it's like winning a final but being denied of the cup. Too much emotions on this I would say.

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#627184 - 07/09/19 01:26 PM Re: British democracy dead and buried [Re: EnergisedReds]
Shaggydog Offline
1st Team Regular

Registered: 30/12/10
Posts: 11009
Loc: Derry
The opposition parties are refusing to hold an election until after 31st October because your current PM is a proven liar.

It has always been difficult to run parliament when you are a minority government

It really is as simple as that.

It is easy to talk about leaving with a No Deal when you have your triple lock pension and your family raised. Parliament is simply trying to prevent Bojo from carrying out a catastrophic act of economic self harm. The purge of moderate tories shows you how radical they have become under Bojo

No one voted to leave with No Deal and there are numerous quotes from the leave leaders during the campaign to support that.

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#627185 - 07/09/19 02:03 PM Re: British democracy dead and buried [Re: Shaggydog]
lumba Offline
Liverpool Legend

Registered: 19/03/09
Posts: 22950
Loc: Destination unknown
Well put Shags,wasting your time though.
_________________________
That job interview was going so well until I realized I was fukked up on acid in the middle of a cornfield naked and talking to a scarecrow.

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#627186 - 07/09/19 02:05 PM Re: British democracy dead and buried [Re: EnergisedReds]
lumba Offline
Liverpool Legend

Registered: 19/03/09
Posts: 22950
Loc: Destination unknown
Originally Posted By EnergisedReds
Originally Posted By Stanley Park
We are a parliamentary democracy and MP,s use their judgement. However that does not apply in a referendum where parliamentary democracy authorises the delegation of the decision to the people.

I agree we should leave with no deal and if it's as bad as remainers claim then we can rejoin

Anything else other than leaving the EU wont be accepted by leavers and the many remainers who don't agree with leaving the EU but respect democracy that's a lot of hacked off people


That's not exact if you go by your democracy, I am sure you know that the referendum in real terms was only advisory and not binding, but then I fully understand that leavers are not interested with that fact. I know, it's like winning a final but being denied of the cup. Too much emotions on this I would say.
Brexit VAR.
_________________________
That job interview was going so well until I realized I was fukked up on acid in the middle of a cornfield naked and talking to a scarecrow.

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#627188 - 07/09/19 04:13 PM Re: British democracy dead and buried [Re: Shaggydog]
wilkij1975 Online   content
Liverpool Legend

Registered: 26/06/09
Posts: 21997
Loc: Northamptonshire
Originally Posted By Shaggydog
The opposition parties are refusing to hold an election until after 31st October because your current PM is a proven liar.

It has always been difficult to run parliament when you are a minority government

It really is as simple as that.

It is easy to talk about leaving with a No Deal when you have your triple lock pension and your family raised. Parliament is simply trying to prevent Bojo from carrying out a catastrophic act of economic self harm. The purge of moderate tories shows you how radical they have become under Bojo

No one voted to leave with No Deal and there are numerous quotes from the leave leaders during the campaign to support that.




The default legal position to leave is without s deal so knowingly or not, people voted to leave without a deal.

Iím also pretty sure that they could pass law to set an imo able election date. They seem to be able to do whatever else they like. But I think they are scared of losing which I think they will. The Greens are already talking about colluding with the other parties to stop the conservatives.


Edited by wilkij1975 (07/09/19 04:15 PM)

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#627189 - 07/09/19 04:20 PM Re: British democracy dead and buried [Re: wilkij1975]
Shaggydog Offline
1st Team Regular

Registered: 30/12/10
Posts: 11009
Loc: Derry
Originally Posted By wilkij1975
Originally Posted By Shaggydog
The opposition parties are refusing to hold an election until after 31st October because your current PM is a proven liar.

It has always been difficult to run parliament when you are a minority government

It really is as simple as that.

It is easy to talk about leaving with a No Deal when you have your triple lock pension and your family raised. Parliament is simply trying to prevent Bojo from carrying out a catastrophic act of economic self harm. The purge of moderate tories shows you how radical they have become under Bojo

No one voted to leave with No Deal and there are numerous quotes from the leave leaders during the campaign to support that.




The default legal position to leave is without s deal so knowingly or not, people voted to leave without a deal.

Iím also pretty sure that they could pass law to set an imo able election date. They seem to be able to do whatever else they like. But I think they are scared of losing which I think they will. The Greens are already talking about colluding with the other parties to stop the conservatives.

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#627190 - 07/09/19 04:23 PM Re: British democracy dead and buried [Re: Shaggydog]
Shaggydog Offline
1st Team Regular

Registered: 30/12/10
Posts: 11009
Loc: Derry
So are you saying it's OK to implement something that people didn't know they were voting for?

Again, the problem is that your PM is a liar who can't be trusted by the opposition.

You do know that that tories are talking about entering into an electoral pact with Farage.

Also they only formed the current government after entering into a confidence and supply agreement with the DUP

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