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Originally Posted By Stanley Park
I always hide when Jehovah's witnesses come knocking but if that's their thing why should they have to stop because of Islamic violence ? Islam needs to adapt to western societies if it can't then we need to manage that not change everything we choose in a free society to adapt to them


Because attempting to convert someoene goes against the principle of live and let live. Those who feel the need to convert are essentially saying that they are right and the persons they are trying to convert are wrong. They don't accept that their is more than one path to salvation, if that is indeed a goal, or even that there may be no god at all.

Conversions and attempted conversions cause divisions in families and societies. You will find that if you invte the Jehova's witnesses into your house, welcome them in, have a reasoned discussion with them... they will be very polite but they won't come back once they realise that they aren't going to persuade you. For them it's a numbers game. The people that tend to be persuaded are vulnerable people.

And when you have a group engaging in conversions, you will find another group fighting back. One of the problems with Islam too is that converting others is a duty of every Muslim. It then becomes a strategy of the community. It's just inviting trouble.

You think Islam will change? Wishful thinking. Just look at the history of the world since Islam came into existence. Remember, you said you can't wait for a solution that will take time to evolve.

The mistake Britain made was not laying down some rules before the influx. You either now have to introduce some rules that should apply equally to everybody. Or you have to say that generally speaking, we don't want Islamic communities here. The latter will not go down well.





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Originally Posted By Stanley Park
Originally Posted By TheMightyLFC
Never say never. We are an evolving species. As we have gone through generations we have refined our behvaiour. Our cultures refines over time and becomes increasigly 'civilised'... or at least we have it in our power to do so. It will take time but we can get there.

You stated that many peoples already do generally get on... so it is possible, even if it's not perfect we do have pockets of the world where there is stability. Britain is one of the best examples. And I'd say it is that way because of two reasons:

1. we were well on the way to reducing poverty
2. our society is not dominated by dogmatic/orthodox/imposing/mindless religion.

Britain has a good level of security and social welfare.

Britain may be a Christain country in some senses but in other senses it's not really - many folk will say they are Christian but they won't go to church, won't know much about the bible etc. Christmas is just an excuse for a party for many, perhaps most.

The people are free to think; free to chose what they believe; free to worship or not worship etc. Most of us keep our religious views personal and at home and we mingle, interact with each other socially and through the means by which we earn our livelihoods.

So I think it's a combination of the lack of poverty, good basic education and keeping religion private/in the background that provides a good environment for peaceful co-existence.

And that's why there is such a problem when Islam is in the mix it seems. It doesn't allow the culture to evoleve; it doesn't allow free thinking; it doesn't allow religion to be kept private. I may be wrong - but this is how it comes across.

The West's problem is that it perhaps invited the conflict. Empire building, attempts to divide and rule people all over the world, etc. The chickens are coming home to roost now. Reap as ye shall sow. If you stick your hand in a hornets nest, expect to be stung.



I don't disagree with a word mighty but what you are saying is rather fluffy and generalised We have a specific problem right now and practical decisions need to be taken now. I am afraid we can't wait for us to evolve. The Manchester bombing is right on my doorstep in fact I am on the train there right now. This cannot go on.


Very complicated to get rid of terrorists in a democracy.

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It is complicated getting rid of terrorists in a democracy

But I am afraid our liberal politicians are like rabbits in the headlights the response to each incident is to light a candle and sing imagine. The terrorists can't believe their luck. Andy burnham new mayor of Manchester seems to be more concerned with Muslim sensitivities nothing is to do with Islam it seems. The killing will go on I have no doubt


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Originally Posted By Stanley Park
It is complicated getting rid of terrorists in a democracy

But I am afraid our liberal politicians are like rabbits in the headlights the response to each incident is to light a candle and sing imagine. The terrorists can't believe their luck. Andy burnham new mayor of Manchester seems to be more concerned with Muslim sensitivities nothing is to do with Islam it seems. The killing will go on I have no doubt


The killing will also go on in Syria, Afghanistan, Libya and Iraq also.

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Originally Posted By Shaggydog
Originally Posted By Stanley Park
It is complicated getting rid of terrorists in a democracy

But I am afraid our liberal politicians are like rabbits in the headlights the response to each incident is to light a candle and sing imagine. The terrorists can't believe their luck. Andy burnham new mayor of Manchester seems to be more concerned with Muslim sensitivities nothing is to do with Islam it seems. The killing will go on I have no doubt


The killing will also go on in Syria, Afghanistan, Libya and Iraq also.


Without doubt but we are not the prime killers as you maintain


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Originally Posted By Stanley Park
Originally Posted By Shaggydog
Originally Posted By Stanley Park
It is complicated getting rid of terrorists in a democracy

But I am afraid our liberal politicians are like rabbits in the headlights the response to each incident is to light a candle and sing imagine. The terrorists can't believe their luck. Andy burnham new mayor of Manchester seems to be more concerned with Muslim sensitivities nothing is to do with Islam it seems. The killing will go on I have no doubt


The killing will also go on in Syria, Afghanistan, Libya and Iraq also.


Without doubt but we are not the prime killers as you maintain


So if you are not the prime killer then you hold the moral ground in some strange way.

Tell that to the countless victims in the countries mentioned previously.

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There will be many more victims in those countries if we let ISIS loose as you would do

And once they had built up power one day they would be over to Ireland you would not be so smug then


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Originally Posted By Stanley Park
There will be many more victims in those countries if we let ISIS loose as you would do

And once they had built up power one day they would be over to Ireland you would not be so smug then


I am neither smug or a supporter of ISIS because large numbers of innocent people are dying in the west and the east.

But to pretend that we are without fault in this whole terrifying situation is not only wrong but also untrue.

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Originally Posted By Shaggydog
Originally Posted By Stanley Park
There will be many more victims in those countries if we let ISIS loose as you would do

And once they had built up power one day they would be over to Ireland you would not be so smug then


I am neither smug or a supporter of ISIS because large numbers of innocent people are dying in the west and the east.

But to pretend that we are without fault in this whole terrifying situation is not only wrong but also untrue.


Mistakes have been made with hindsight Libya being one in my view. But remember why we went into Libya air support to the rebels gadafi was slaughtering thousands. With hindsight it might have been better to watch gadafi slaughtering rather than open a gap for ISIS. But it's easy to pick and choose I believe we are generally on the side of right and I believe the west is for good overall albeit our judgement is not enduringly perfect. No doubt you disagree you say you are not a supporter of Isis thanks for that information which is helpful as I never would have picked that up from your posts.


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